You know how on salvage missions you sometimes just drown in bugs because they just never stop coming?

[Syro System]

Yea, turns out that's because every time you repair a mini-mule, a small swarm spawns.
And this is almost not possible to realize, so people usually repair two at in quick succession and then you screwed yourself without realizing it. especially if there is still bugs around by the time you repair it.

Feels kinda bad only learning about this now after all the salvage missions I've had turn into nightmares without realizing what did it.
Wish there was SOMETHING to indicate this was the case as it is with eggs (in that case a loud and obvious roar as well as thematically making sense that stealing an egg would get the bugs attention).

[Syro System]

Publicado originalmente por Chibbity:

Publicado originalmente por Syro System:

This is the single most well hidden spawn trigger I've seen and the fact that it is so well hidden is the direct cause as to why so many teams screw themselves over unknowingly.

I mean...no offense, but..how many times do you have to get ambushed by a silent wave after/while repairing the mini mule before you put 2 and 2 together?

maybe because the spawn is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ delayed by a random amount of time and has no indication, like I literally just said.
Also because the spawns that trigger from digging out a leg is completely random which leg has the trigger. 1 out of 4 legs is rigged with a trigger so you can get lucky and not get the rigged leg.

[Chibbity]

Publicado originalmente por Syro System:

maybe because the spawn is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ delayed by a random amount of time and has no indication, like I literally just said.
Also because the spawns that trigger from digging out a leg is completely random which leg has the trigger. 1 out of 4 legs is rigged with a trigger so you can get lucky and not get the rigged leg.

Progressing objectives typically causes swarms.

You notice that although you're not certain about the specifics, you tend to get ambushed whenever you start screwing with the mini mules or their legs.

I mean, I get what you're saying, no one explicitly tells you; but it's not a huge stretch either.

[Syro System]

Publicado originalmente por Chibbity:

Publicado originalmente por Syro System:

maybe because the spawn is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ delayed by a random amount of time and has no indication, like I literally just said.
Also because the spawns that trigger from digging out a leg is completely random which leg has the trigger. 1 out of 4 legs is rigged with a trigger so you can get lucky and not get the rigged leg.

Progressing objectives typically causes swarms.

You notice that although you're not certain about the specifics, you tend to get ambushed whenever you start screwing with the mini mules or their legs.

I mean, I get what you're saying, no one explicitly tells you; but it's not a huge stretch either.

Mining morkite veins, building pipe lines, calling down pump jacks, calling down hack or rock cracker pods or cleansing pods, digging out an aquark, these are all objective interactions that don't spawn bugs.
And interacting with mini-mules is, all things considered, exactly like these things unless you know it has a hidden mechanic.

All other objective interactions that spawn swarms are either so obviously going to do it that you can indeed figure it out before doing it, or you will figure it out after seeing it for the first time.
Eggs are an exception as it takes a bit longer for some players to realize they are spawners but only if you don't realize the thematically obvious indication that bugs will try to stop you from stealing their eggs.

There is nothing that makes sense game or lore wise about swarms spawning just because you walked within 2 meters of a broken robot.

[phenir]

Publicado originalmente por Syro System:

Mining morkite veins, building pipe lines, calling down pump jacks, calling down hack or rock cracker pods or cleansing pods, digging out an aquark, these are all objective interactions that don't spawn bugs.

Because those missions all have timed swarms

And interacting with mini-mules is, all things considered, exactly like these things unless you know it has a hidden mechanic.

And this mission doesn't. Swarms gotta come from somewhere man. Not that they are actual swarms, it's just one wave per trigger.

There is nothing that makes sense game or lore wise about swarms spawning just because you walked within 2 meters of a broken robot.

Yeah, it's not like you're working in an environment where another team was wiped out or anything. Oh wait, that's exactly the premise of salvage. Maybe they are waiting to ambush recovery teams? Or just hanging around cause they have no reason to leave and end up clustered there from the previous wipeout.

[Bookslayer10]

Publicado originalmente por Syro System:

Publicado originalmente por Chibbity:

Progressing objectives typically causes swarms.

You notice that although you're not certain about the specifics, you tend to get ambushed whenever you start screwing with the mini mules or their legs.

I mean, I get what you're saying, no one explicitly tells you; but it's not a huge stretch either.

Mining morkite veins, building pipe lines, calling down pump jacks, calling down hack or rock cracker pods or cleansing pods, digging out an aquark, these are all objective interactions that don't spawn bugs.
And interacting with mini-mules is, all things considered, exactly like these things unless you know it has a hidden mechanic.

All other objective interactions that spawn swarms are either so obviously going to do it that you can indeed figure it out before doing it, or you will figure it out after seeing it for the first time.
Eggs are an exception as it takes a bit longer for some players to realize they are spawners but only if you don't realize the thematically obvious indication that bugs will try to stop you from stealing their eggs.

There is nothing that makes sense game or lore wise about swarms spawning just because you walked within 2 meters of a broken robot.

Yeah, I agree. There are already timed mini-swarms on Salvage Op missions, it's easy to assume that the mini-mule waves are just those. I had no idea that they spawned enemies until I learned it somewhere else.

It probably would be better if it was mentioned somewhere that messing around with the equipment attracts the bugs, just to stop players unknowingly spawning bugs while the team is doing another objective.

[Brave Sir Robin]

It's actually amazing how many experienced players still don't understand the mini-mule spawns.

[ℳusʰ®°°ｍ]

Mini-mules and their legs would subtly imply that they could alert bugs if they made a loud noise, rumbled, and sparked when approached or mined, similar to other DRG machines that the bugs hate, or the screams heard when eggs are pulled.

[Aimee]

Publicado originalmente por LBG:

It's actually amazing how many experienced players still don't understand the mini-mule spawns.

Hours played does not equal experience. A lot of new players who ask things on the forums or make statements, have 100+h in the game but only started playing recently.
There is only so much a person can absorb from the game, when playing a lot every day/week.

There are a lot of game mechanics that people dont understand or grasp yet. And thats fine. Its just a shame that it often leads to extreme statements on the forums.

[Aimee]

Publicado originalmente por αQ:

Mini-mules and their legs would subtly imply that they could alert bugs if they made a loud noise, rumbled, and sparked when approached or mined, similar to other DRG machines that the bugs hate, or the screams heard when eggs are pulled.

You mean like the loud bleeping sound when you get close? Or the sounds of scanning the mule for legs that makes them send out a high pitched sound? Or prehaps the hammering on metal as you attach the legs?

Some things are subtle only if you dont look for them. You would be surprised how many games have logical explanations that are also consistent that people just dont look for.

[Syro System]

Publicado originalmente por Aimee:

Publicado originalmente por αQ:

Mini-mules and their legs would subtly imply that they could alert bugs if they made a loud noise, rumbled, and sparked when approached or mined, similar to other DRG machines that the bugs hate, or the screams heard when eggs are pulled.

You mean like the loud bleeping sound when you get close? Or the sounds of scanning the mule for legs that makes them send out a high pitched sound? Or prehaps the hammering on metal as you attach the legs?

Some things are subtle only if you dont look for them. You would be surprised how many games have logical explanations that are also consistent that people just dont look for.

You mean like the sound cargo crate batteries and lost helmets make to help you locate them?
You know, things that DON'T spawn anything when you interact with them?

Stop defending bad design. Just because a game is good doesn't mean it's immune to having badly designed elements (*cough* Korlok i a drill dozer's parking spot for the refueling part *cough*), and if you actually like something you need to point out the bad things otherwise they will just stay bad.

[Aimee]

Publicado originalmente por Syro System:

Stop defending bad design. Just because a game is good doesn't mean it's immune to having badly designed elements (*cough* Korlok i a drill dozer's parking spot for the refueling part *cough*), and if you actually like something you need to point out the bad things otherwise they will just stay bad.

Just because i disagree with you, does not mean im defending anything.
Stop being butthurt about people not siding with you, it doesnt achieve anything.

I honnestly think the game gives too many indications about things that are about to happen already. For some I understand like the drilldozer attacks when you are refueling. But most other things are completely unneeded. In many games, the devs just expects you to learn and the game does not hold your hand. In DRG it holds your hand with so many things that if there is a more subtle reason for something, people instantly complain.
I get it DRG is a casual game, and most people dont want to learn it or figure things out themselves. But at some point there should be some progression in player experience and skill in a game, otherwise it just turns into a bland and boring game.

- You didnt figure out that running past swarmer tunnels spawns swarmers? Fine just deal with the threat and dont play higher hazard games if you cant handle that during a wave.
- You didnt figure out that Point Extraction has waves ramping up, also fine. On lower hazards the starting waves and the ramping up is lowered. So you have less of a time crunch.
- Want to do that machine event in PE when the mission timer is at 30 min already, fine either deal with the constant spawns, give up and call a droppod, or do the next machine event in another cave.

I can mention 100 more of these things that you either learn because you want to, or dont learn and have to deal with in some way. But not a single one is gamebreaking.

[Syro System]

Publicado originalmente por Aimee:

Publicado originalmente por Syro System:

Stop defending bad design. Just because a game is good doesn't mean it's immune to having badly designed elements (*cough* Korlok i a drill dozer's parking spot for the refueling part *cough*), and if you actually like something you need to point out the bad things otherwise they will just stay bad.

Just because i disagree with you, does not mean im defending anything.
Stop being butthurt about people not siding with you, it doesnt achieve anything.

I honnestly think the game gives too many indications about things that are about to happen already. For some I understand like the drilldozer attacks when you are refueling. But most other things are completely unneeded. In many games, the devs just expects you to learn and the game does not hold your hand. In DRG it holds your hand with so many things that if there is a more subtle reason for something, people instantly complain.
I get it DRG is a casual game, and most people dont want to learn it or figure things out themselves. But at some point there should be some progression in player experience and skill in a game, otherwise it just turns into a bland and boring game.

- You didnt figure out that running past swarmer tunnels spawns swarmers? Fine just deal with the threat and dont play higher hazard games if you cant handle that during a wave.
- You didnt figure out that Point Extraction has waves ramping up, also fine. On lower hazards the starting waves and the ramping up is lowered. So you have less of a time crunch.
- Want to do that machine event in PE when the mission timer is at 30 min already, fine either deal with the constant spawns, give up and call a droppod, or do the next machine event in another cave.

I can mention 100 more of these things that you either learn because you want to, or dont learn and have to deal with in some way. But not a single one is gamebreaking.

Even GTFO, which is designed to be extra hard, has obvious triggers for horde events that you either identify as such before even interacting with them, or figure out after seeing them once. Because that's basic good game design.
Even in a game like L4D2 where hordes and specials spawn at random intervals and locations, you do get a heads up in the form of audio ques.
Mini-mules are none of the above and have an extra layer hiding their spawn triggers (the delay before they actually happen).

[Chibbity]

Management: "Be careful walking near the Mini-Mules, or digging out the legs because bugs will spawn...uhhhh...for some reason...hold up; I'll think of something...*whistling noises* hmmm...no....uhhh...maybe.....nah that doesn't make sense...y'know what? It's a video game that's why, now get back to work!"

There is really no logical reason why it would make bugs spawn, so there is no good way to explain it in game; it's just one of those things you pick up over time.

[Syro System]

Publicado originalmente por Chibbity:

Management: "Be careful walking near the Mini-Mules, or digging out the legs because bugs will spawn...uhhhh...for some reason...hold up; I'll think of something...*whistling noises* hmmm...no....uhhh...maybe.....nah that doesn't make sense...y'know what? It's a video game that's why, now get back to work!"

There is really no logical reason why it would make bugs spawn, so there is no good way to explain it in game; it's just one of those things you pick up over time.

or, they could simply, you know, NOT spawn bugs illogically (just like morkite veins) and instead have the cave that holds the mules be extra full of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ when you dig your way into it.

[Chibbity]

Publicado originalmente por Syro System:

or, they could simply, you know, NOT spawn bugs illogically (just like morkite veins) and instead have the cave that holds the mules be extra full of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ when you dig your way into it.

So you can easily deal with them all as they funnel through a choke point? Doesn't sound like a great idea balance wise.

They spawn based on the Mules/Legs because that forces you to deal with them on their terms, not yours.

Finally the game can only have I think 50 bugs active at any one point, so even if it was the max number in the large cave holding the Mini-Mules; it wouldn't be much of a threat.