Engineers Shredders are broken (too strong)

[Synka]

For the people who dont do or watch stat breakdowns/weapon analysis, shredders do 18 dps each and 48 instant damage to any target they hit for the first time. And they do splash damage each as well. So against a swarm of grunts you can easily do a couple thousand of damage, against a single target ~700 (so 2 grenades will kill a opressor on haz5 4 player scaling). No enemy has resistances against their attacks, but also no bonuses.

not to mention their damage output efficiency, due to not being instantanous but over time.

This makes all other engi grenades obsolete, the proximity mine being the only one who could ever get close to the total value, but being way more situational to use

[Suzaku]

I think the damage is fine. As a limited resource, it should be effective at decimating groups of bugs in short order.

The thing that makes it stand out so much is the ease of use and duration. You can throw it anywhere and the shredders will simply find targets (you can't "miss" or waste it), there's no threat of friendly fire, and they stick around for so long that a single grenade can basically solo a wave of bugs regardless of its composition.

If the grenade was to be nerfed, I'd either simply reduce its duration, or cause the shredders to stay in the area that they were thrown instead of following the engineer around.

[Synka]

Originally posted by Suzaku:

I think the damage is fine. As a limited resource, it should be effective at decimating groups of bugs in short order.

The thing that makes it stand out so much is the ease of use and duration. You can throw it anywhere and the shredders will simply find targets (you can't "miss" or waste it), there's no threat of friendly fire, and they stick around for so long that a single grenade can basically solo a wave of bugs regardless of its composition.

If the grenade was to be nerfed, I'd either simply reduce its duration, or cause the shredders to stay in the area that they were thrown instead of following the engineer around.

duration is not so important as damage is capped (12 attacks per shredder and they always break), but I also mentioned this by their output efficiency. so you pretty much just repeated what I already said...

[Derpykat5]

The numbers may be partially right but the interpretation is dead wrong.

You get 5 shredders per swarm and they last 40 seconds each. At 18 DPS it seems like a shredder would output 720 damage... Except that each shredder has a damage cap of 140, meaning all 5 shredders put together output only 700 damage. Even accounting for the (very small) AoE of 1.8m on the 8 DPS that's actually AoE, you're unlikely to break 1000 damage against anything.

Damage over time is actually the least efficient way to output damage. Why do 700 damage over the course of ~10 seconds (which is how long it would actually take to hit the damage cap) when I can do it all at once and kill the enemies now?

This in no way makes the other grenades obsolete. Plasma Bursters deal significant damage in a much larger area. LURE grenades fill an entirely different niche.

[AyyDimitri]

They feel good.
Keep them this way.

Improve boomerang.

[Synka]

Originally posted by Derpykat5:

The numbers may be partially right but the interpretation is dead wrong.

You get 5 shredders per swarm and they last 40 seconds each. At 18 DPS it seems like a shredder would output 720 DPS... Except that each shredder has a damage cap of 140, meaning all 5 shredders put together output only 700 DPS. Even accounting for the (very small) AoE of 1.8m on the 8 DPS that's actually AoE, you're unlikely to break 1000 damage against anything.

Damage over time is actually the least efficient way to output damage. Why do 700 damage over the course of ~10 seconds (which is how long it would actually take to hit the damage cap) when I can do it all at once and kill the enemies now?

This in no way makes the other grenades obsolete. Plasma Bursters deal significant damage in a much larger area. LURE grenades fill an entirely different niche.

during a swarm shredders do AoE damage, and that aoe does also apply the 48 damage, so every enemy in a 1.8m radius of each shredder gets hit with 48 damage instantly, then 18 dps following that. so a single shredder kills any number of grunts in its AoE within 3.3 seconds, or 6 hits. that leaves every shredder with enough damage to halfway kill another group of grunts.
the damage over time is the most efficient because it makes the grenades extremely consistent, they will output that damage no matter how or where you throw them. any other grenade needs to be used in the right moment and needs certain criteria to meet

[Ser Pounce]

Originally posted by Synka:

For the people who dont do or watch stat breakdowns/weapon analysis, shredders do 18 dps each and 48 instant damage to any target they hit for the first time. And they do splash damage each as well. So against a swarm of grunts you can easily do a couple thousand of damage, against a single target ~700 (so 2 grenades will kill a opressor on haz5 4 player scaling). No enemy has resistances against their attacks, but also no bonuses.

not to mention their damage output efficiency, due to not being instantanous but over time.

This makes all other engi grenades obsolete, the proximity mine being the only one who could ever get close to the total value, but being way more situational to use

If you think shredders are broken, wait until you realise that Leadbursters can two-shots bulk detonators.

[Synka]

Originally posted by AyyDimitri:

They feel good.
Keep them this way.

Improve boomerang.

boomerang is decently strong, 40m range to stun any target for 4-6 seconds

[Synka]

Originally posted by Ser Pounce:

Originally posted by Synka:

For the people who dont do or watch stat breakdowns/weapon analysis, shredders do 18 dps each and 48 instant damage to any target they hit for the first time. And they do splash damage each as well. So against a swarm of grunts you can easily do a couple thousand of damage, against a single target ~700 (so 2 grenades will kill a opressor on haz5 4 player scaling). No enemy has resistances against their attacks, but also no bonuses.

not to mention their damage output efficiency, due to not being instantanous but over time.

This makes all other engi grenades obsolete, the proximity mine being the only one who could ever get close to the total value, but being way more situational to use

If you think shredders are broken, wait until you realise that Leadbursters can two-shots bulk detonators.

that is one extremely niche situation vs a general extremely consistent and high damage

[Meat Man (Alfons)]

They are deceptively good for sure, especially when it is up against Engineers other grenades which are all really good it still manages to be a very reliable grenade. Though I don't know if they really warrant a nerf since engineers grenades are already really good.

They're not a very bursty grenade at all, you cant really control them and you can only have 1 active at a time so you better hope the ones that are active are attacking the right enemies.

LazyMaybe made a video on them recently, showing some mechanics about them which show why they're effective against Grunts (they apply a DoT. When it is applied for the first time it is applied twice so it does deal some burst damage)

[Synka]

Originally posted by Meat Man (Alfons):

They are deceptively good for sure, especially when it is up against Engineers other grenades which are all really good it still manages to be a very reliable grenade. Though I don't know if they really warrant a nerf since engineers grenades are already really good.

They're not a very bursty grenade at all, you cant really control them and you can only have 1 active at a time so you better hope the ones that are active are attacking the right enemies.

LazyMaybe made a video on them recently, showing some mechanics about them which show why they're effective against Grunts (they apply a DoT. When it is applied for the first time it is applied twice so it does deal some burst damage)

that video I saw a few days ago, and it only strengthens my point. if you watched it you should know what I am talking about

[JeanneOskoure]

Plasma bursters deal 60 damage per burst, with no falloff whatsoever. That means that even if you only hit 1 burst per target, if there are 12 enemies in a line, you'll outdamage the SSG. If you hit 2 bursts pert target, which isn't that hard, you'll only need 6 enemies.

The advantage of the SSG is that it's a use-and-forget weapon that buys you time to do something else in a pinch, while also lasting long enough to help you once you got out of trouble. Or you can use it proactively to increase your DPS further. I agree that it doesn't require any skill at all, but it's not "broken".

The LURE has more utility, the proxy mines have as much damage and fear on top of area denial, Plasma bursters are straight up better and also have fear and 2 more uses. The only thing the SSG has over them is being a "I don't have time to think" panic button that also helps you after you're out of trouble thanks to the slow when enemies are hit, which is convenient when you haven't had time to setup your turrets and your bug repellent fortress yet.

[Advanced Nap Techs]

Engineer getting a lot of good alt gear, including Shredders, offsets the fact that his turret is a completely underwhelming ammo gobbler that demands way too much maintenance and setup for something that doesn't even really clear crowds or defend that well.

[Meat Man (Alfons)]

Originally posted by Derpykat5:

The numbers may be partially right but the interpretation is dead wrong.

You get 5 shredders per swarm and they last 40 seconds each. At 18 DPS it seems like a shredder would output 720 damage... Except that each shredder has a damage cap of 140, meaning all 5 shredders put together output only 700 damage. Even accounting for the (very small) AoE of 1.8m on the 8 DPS that's actually AoE, you're unlikely to break 1000 damage against anything.

Damage over time is actually the least efficient way to output damage. Why do 700 damage over the course of ~10 seconds (which is how long it would actually take to hit the damage cap) when I can do it all at once and kill the enemies now?

This in no way makes the other grenades obsolete. Plasma Bursters deal significant damage in a much larger area. LURE grenades fill an entirely different niche.

If DoT is the least effective way to output damage, then why is Electric Reload and Neurotoxin Payload so good?
Additionally, the damage calculation you mentioned isnt entirely true (as shown by LazyMaybes videos on the new grenades) as it applies a hidden DoT which deals damage twice when applies for the first time which is why it takes out grunts so fast, and also encourages taking out enemies the shredders are attacking to get even more out of your shredders.

They dont make other grenades obselete as it isnt very bursty, lasts a limited time unlike proximity mines, and isnt utility like Lure, but they're undeniably very good that just acts as a passive damage increases if you play along with your new robot bees, or just as a fire and forget kind of tool to clear out some enemies automatically.

[Derpykat5]

Originally posted by Synka:

Originally posted by Derpykat5:

The numbers may be partially right but the interpretation is dead wrong.

You get 5 shredders per swarm and they last 40 seconds each. At 18 DPS it seems like a shredder would output 720 DPS... Except that each shredder has a damage cap of 140, meaning all 5 shredders put together output only 700 DPS. Even accounting for the (very small) AoE of 1.8m on the 8 DPS that's actually AoE, you're unlikely to break 1000 damage against anything.

Damage over time is actually the least efficient way to output damage. Why do 700 damage over the course of ~10 seconds (which is how long it would actually take to hit the damage cap) when I can do it all at once and kill the enemies now?

This in no way makes the other grenades obsolete. Plasma Bursters deal significant damage in a much larger area. LURE grenades fill an entirely different niche.

during a swarm shredders do AoE damage, and that aoe does also apply the 48 damage, so every enemy in a 1.8m radius of each shredder gets hit with 48 damage instantly, then 18 dps following that. so a single shredder kills any number of grunts in its AoE within 3.3 seconds, or 6 hits. that leaves every shredder with enough damage to halfway kill another group of grunts.
the damage over time is the most efficient because it makes the grenades extremely consistent, they will output that damage no matter how or where you throw them. any other grenade needs to be used in the right moment and needs certain criteria to meet

I don't know where you're getting your numbers from, but the wiki says absolutely nothing about a 48 damage spike on new targets. Besides, you're killing two grunts per shredder. Whoopee. I can kill more than 10 grunts with both other damage-focused grenades.

[JeanneOskoure]

Originally posted by Derpykat5:

Originally posted by Synka:

during a swarm shredders do AoE damage, and that aoe does also apply the 48 damage, so every enemy in a 1.8m radius of each shredder gets hit with 48 damage instantly, then 18 dps following that. so a single shredder kills any number of grunts in its AoE within 3.3 seconds, or 6 hits. that leaves every shredder with enough damage to halfway kill another group of grunts.
the damage over time is the most efficient because it makes the grenades extremely consistent, they will output that damage no matter how or where you throw them. any other grenade needs to be used in the right moment and needs certain criteria to meet

I don't know where you're getting your numbers from, but the wiki says absolutely nothing about a 48 damage spike on new targets. Besides, you're killing two grunts per shredder. Whoopee. I can kill more than 10 grunts with both other damage-focused grenades.

Apparently, the SSG internal 24 DoT applies twice instead of once when applied for the first time. That's definitely a bug, though, and not one that we shoot. But yeah, it does deal 48 damage when hitting an enemy for the first time instead of 24 (and then an additional 24 every 2.1s if the shredders keep hitting the enemy).