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Autor tego wątku oznaczył poniższy post jako odpowiedź na jego pytanie.
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I might vomit
Look I am NOT saying its morally ok to cheat in online games, but last time I checked, there is no law against cheating in online games.
Feel free to prove me wrong.
But that aside, I guess your statement means that flipping the board when you're losing at Monopoly is a legit strategy because it's not stated in the rules that you can't. And even if it was stated, there's no Rule Enforcement Squad there to punish you for doing so.
For anyone who might not like my use of a competitive game as an example, you could make the same argument using Pandemic. A player could unilaterally decide to take 3 turns in a row, or re-draw if they pull an Epidemic card, or tamper with the Infection Rate token, or indiscriminately remove infection cubes off the board.
"The makers of the game didn't explicitly state in the rules that I can't."
"But it helps the whole team win!"
"Who's going to stop me?"
These "arguments" don't legitimize cheating.
They just highlight that you can't control what other people do, only what you do.
If your sibling is cheating at a board game, you stop playing with them.
If some random player is cheating in DRG, you stop playing with them.
Its like doping, its not allowed because private organisation can ban you because you accept their conditions, but still its not forbidden to dope.
Here in DRG its even a step further (or below depending on your view) there is no ban system, no private organisation, no law no nothing. Cheating is legit, period.
Should you do it? Ofc not, for many reasons. But its neither forbidden, nor illegal, nor nothing.
Sry to be that guy.
(also I support all good ideas to make it comfortable for everyone so if anyone has this one perfect solution please share it with me)
Well, those of us with legit red picture frames don't want cheaters giving us a bad rep.
I've actually been kicked from lobbies just based on my level being "too high."
Their actions have consequences, for themselves and others.
There is no law against blood doping, that I am aware of, so the person isn't going to be jailed or fined. But it is still a rule within the sport, and violating the rules gets you expelled. And just to be clear, it's the violation that makes the person illegitimate, not the expulsion.
I don't know why you chose to use an example that directly countered your own argument, notably since I agree with you that there aren't any explicit rules that say you can't alter DRG (cheat).
But if you want to get technical, I don't think you're getting technical enough...
You're right when you say there are no rules against cheating whichever way you want to. Not a single one published in the game, and there's no EULA or TOS that I can see.
But that doesn't mean that there aren't social rules, or social expectations. In every single game, be it an electronic game or a board game or a sport or a game of hide & seek, when most people choose to play they are agreeing to abide by rules and expect others to be agreeing to the same thing... playing the game within the intended parameters and without alteration.
If you start a soccer game with your neighbors, you don't have any written rules and I really doubt you have any officials there for enforcement. But if you decide to turn your team's goal around 180°, or you turn a picnic table on its side and move it to block your goal, you're still not playing legitimately. You can't tackle the batter in a game of baseball with your buddies and expect people to be cool with it. There are social rules at play.
- I agree with you that people who cheat in videogames are not breaking any laws. A cheater is legitimate within the confines of the law.
- I agree with you that people who cheat in DRG are not breaking any written rules, specifically when the game has no written rules to begin with. A cheater is legitimate within the confines of (a lack of) terms of use.
- Several of the developers have stated that they are generally okay with cheaters who cheat in their own games, but are not okay with people who affect others who do no want to play under cheated parameters. In that way, a cheater who brings their cheats into public lobbies are not legitimate within the social contract of the developers' intended use of their game.
- And players who create or join public games expect the game to be played within standard, unaltered parameters. Again, in this regard, cheaters who bring their cheats into public lobbies are not playing legitimately.
So I guess it really just depends on which perspective you're coming at it from.Seeing as we're all people who play this videogame, I find it really, really odd to look at it from the perspective of law, or written rule when it takes so much effort to alter the game outside of intended parameters.
Since we're not in a courtroom, and nobody is attempting to expel cheaters from the game and/or revoke their copy, it seems to me that looking at it from one of the two latter perspectives seems most reasonable.
edit:
And going back to "it's the violation that makes the person illegitimate, not the expulsion," there doesn't need to be an anti-cheat system or a team of developers or moderators dispensing bans and/or title revocations in order for a cheater to be considered illegitimate in terms of violating a social contract.
edit2:
I feel like this is probably way off the OP's topic, by now, and if so then I apologize.
I simply took issue with the use of the word "legit." Maybe you didn't mean to use that word, maybe you did; I won't assume to know your intent. My responses are why I think that choice of words was faulty.
Its like taking a bus seat from an old lady, its morally completely ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ but its legit to use it.
Edit: Again I am not saying anyone should cheat nor do I support it, I also dont support taking seats from old ladies and I dont support doping.
Just to shine another light on this whole discussion, lets say cheated/modded lobbys are easily recoginzeable, it would also make the biggest part (of the problem) disapear, to name it, your time and efforts got negativly effected.
Edit2: Btw, I am talking solely about DRG, in some games cheating is infact ruled out because they forbid third party software which enables to bypass grind etc. Ofc games with anti cheat software is also different. But these are like doping in sports more like house rules.
They are aware of everything and talk directly to the mod makers.
But you won't find any direct "cheats" in those servers. The mods mostly change the lighting, sounds or increase difficulty. Some mods change the weapon balance or allow you to make custom swarms.
It is reasonable for players to assume that anyone else who is playing has not edited their game files to accomplish things out of the norm for other players. Anyone who -has- done that is not playing legitimately
A more apt comparison to your bus seat example would be players who drop resupplies and then take 2x without talking to their group. It's a crummy thing to do, and people expect everyone else to just take one unless they request otherwise, but the behavior is within the normal parameters of the game.
Double XP, unlimited ammo, super jumps, these are all examples of things outside the confines. You may as well compare it to somehow coercing the bus driver to suddenly abandon their standard route and take you directly to your house, because that would be changing parameters that everyone else reasonably expected to be within a certain norm.
And while I doubt it's illegal for a bus rider to do that, it's still not "legitimately riding public transportation like everyone else," within the norms of society.
edit:
We're all going crazy with edits :)
I'm perfectly fine with people playing the game however they want. But if they are going to alter their game (or cheat) then they should keep it to private servers. If they do that, I'm fine with whatever they want to do. When they mess with other players who are expecting a normal game and get anything but normal, that's a problem.
But if, as you said, the lobbies were clearly identified as ones that are not "vanilla" and have been modified, then I'm fine with that. Anyone joining would know what they are getting into, and the "cheater" would (imo) thereby be considered legitimate again. After all, the game would be made to identify and recognize the behavior. What would be more legitimate than that?
And no hard feelings, btw. I respect that we're just voicing and defending our ideas / opinions, and that's super cool
That's great, but I think everyone can agree that anyone running a modding server needs to go out of their way to make any joiners aware of what they are joining. (Preferably by tagging their server as modded in the name.)
It's in the best interest of both groups.
You are absolutely right with everything you say, thing is all if this already happens, to boil it down, you join, you see hacks, you leave (at least I do), ultimately punishing the cheater like you do with your cousin cheating you in monopoly.
The moment cheating isnt legit anymore in any way or shape, you must enforce some kind of punishment.
If you punish it, with a ban, abandoning or whatever you enforce a your rule (in this example: cheater suck go ♥♥♥♥ yourself) you do not support it, you give your seat to that old lady.
But its your rule, not someone else, i mean yeah community mostly support your sentiment.
Its like avoiding someone with a questionable opinion, he has potential to hurt people with his opinion (ofc depends on his opinion) but until something happens its legit to have this opinion. You are not forced to stay with him, you simply came in contact with him because you took a risk entering his lobby, his personal space so to speak.
Ofc this can be argued is it still legit IF he joins your lobby? Well yes and no, he still is playing his game he hopefully bought rightfully but now he is entering your space, enforcing some of his questionable opinion to you he choose so he must fear your consequences, that part makes it clear, he is invading your fun, so you kick him because its your space, your „law“.
Thats why I said its legit, its absolutely ok for the person to cheat. There is nothing wrong to cheat and wheres nothing wrong its legit.
Cheating becomes a problem not because its wrong, its becoming a problem because people are ignorant and selfish. But thats a social problem not a cheating problem.
Again this is a multilayered problem with lots of perspective to consider.
I am just not a fan of criminalizing and generalizations, because its easy to gef lost in rules.
Just forbid cheating, forbid doping, just forbid taking seats if someone could use it better just forbid everything because its a hassle or an inconvenience... or because its not your opinion.
We must still be the guys standing on top of the problem, not just forcing our majority on it so it becomes a problem in the backyard. I do not want to connect this to drugs... but we tried it and all what happens its just turned into an behind the scenes problem, probably even worsening it.
Made me think of a the time you could be a hacker and people respected you for it .....
Remeber when modding games was a thing?
The real answer to that is to grow up. They have equal opportunity to get that the exact same way; or the intended way if they prefer. Why get up in arms over something so incredibly minor? A red border, a blue border, big number, small number; it's all just pretend-status symbols. I certainly do not understand these people. I can't even comprehend why it'd bother someone. When people are more upset about what everyone else is doing in a no-stakes game for fun, than having fun, I think they've lost sight of what the point of playing games is.
*Sweats profusely as I spawn a second detonater during a swarmer wave*