Measuring weapon potential by ammo economy

[Derpykat5]

!*MATH WARNING*!
https://imgur.com/a/jDhei7H

With people tossing around balance talks on reddit especially I feel more and more like traditional measurements don't really work here; There aren't many shooters that provide ammo the same way DRG does. It's usually found around the area with a different value for every weapon, but it's a fixed 50% here.
I also wanted an excuse to do math and calculations, as well as settle this question for me at least.

For those unwilling to click on imgur links, the unit I will be using here is "Karls". Karls (or Krs) are measured in damage-per-Nitra. 1 Kr is 1 damage for 1 Nitra.

Karls are calculated using the following equation: Kr = ((Wd * (Wa +Wc)) / 2) / 80
Wd is Weapon damage, Wa is Weapon ammo, Wc is weapon clip*.

for example, a weapon with 5 damage, 200 ammo reserve and 12 clip size would look like this;
((5 * (200 + 12)) / 2) / 80
Which gives it a rating of 6.625krs

*note that weapon clip is included separately in the nitra restoration. The ammo in the clip is in addition to the ammo reserve, meaning the example gun has a total ammo reserve of 212.

With that lengthy explanation out of the way...
These calculations will be based purely on un-upgraded weapons at first, with max Kr builds at the bottom. All calculations will be assuming that all shots hit. Piercing effects such as blowthrough will be disregarded, as will weakspot bonuses, and uncertainty will be avoided where possible.
also note that due to the AoE nature of some weapons (notably the breach cutter, PGL, and autocannon), AoE weapons will often have a higher damage potential. I'm not entirely sure how to handle that.

Initial weapon power

Gunner;
"Lead Storm" powered minigun; 10 damage, 2400 ammo, 0 clip. 150Krs
"Thunderhead" Heavy Autocannon; 14 damage, 9 area damage, 440 ammo, 110 clip. 79 Krs
(This calculation was done assuming that the explosion hits exactly 1 target. If you want to match the base minigun's Krs, the explosion damage would have to hit an average of ~3 targets)
"Bulldog" Heavy Revolver; 50 damage, 28 ammo, 4 clip. 10Krs (yes I'm serious)
BRT7 Burst Fire Gun; 20 damage, 120 ammo, 24 clip. 18Krs

Driller;
CRSPR Flamethrower; 10 damage, 300 ammo, 50 clip. 21Krs.
(Note this doesn't include the burn damage or hitting multiple targets. The actual Kr of the flamethrower is likely much higher)
Cryo Cannon; 6 damage, 400 ammo, 0 clip. 15Krs.
(This doesn't include hitting multiple targets as well, nor does it include the extra damage gained from the freeze effect.)
Subata 120; 12 damage, 160 ammo, 12 clip. 12.9 Krs
Experimental Plasma Charger; 20 damage, 120 ammo, 0 clip. 15Krs
(note that is with uncharged shots only. I'm trying to stay away from AoE here...)

Engineer;
"Warthog" Auto 210; 7x8 (56) damage, 90 ammo, 6 clip. 33Krs
(This is assuming all pellets hit on every shot)
"Stubby" Voltaic SMG; 9 damage, 420 max ammo, 30 clip. 25.3Krs
(This doesn't include the electric DoT)
Deepcore 40mm PGL; 110 damage, 8 ammo, 1 clip. 6.1Krs
(This is if the explosion hits 1 target. Actual Krs would be much higher)
Breach Cutter; 575 DPS, 12 ammo, 4 clip. 46Krs
(This is assuming the beam makes contact with one enemy for one full second each fire. Actual Krs may vary greatly)

Scout;
Deepcore GK2; 15 damage, 350 ammo, 25 clip. 35.1Krs
M1000 Classic; 50 damage, 96 ammo, 8 clip. 32.5Krs
(Note that it actually doesn't matter whether this is hipfire, focus shot, or any mix.)
Jury-Rigged Boomstick; 12x8 (96) damage, 20 shockwave damage, 24 ammo, 2 clip. 18.85Krs
(This is assuming all the pellets hit and the shockwave only hits one enemy each shot.)
Zhukov Nuk17; 11 damage, 600 ammo, 50 clip. 44.6Krs

Initial Conclusions

Gunner's primaries have the best ammo economy in the game by a landslide.
Driller's secondaries are the closest economy wise for any decision in the game (2.1), with Scout's primaries in a close second (2.6).
Driller has the worst average ammo economy in the game against single targets.
The Bulldog revolver has the worst ammo economy in the game.
The ammo economy ranking order is Gunner>Engineer>Scout>Driller (Against single targets)

Round 2; Max economy

Now I messed around with builds to try and find the best ammo economy build for every weapon, to see how they improve. A big thanks to K.A.R.L. community tool for helping.
https://surmiran.github.io/karl/

Note that any uncertainty will be disregarded as an option; I'm trying to get concrete results and variance isn't concrete. Maybe I'll come up with some way to deal with this later.

Gunner;
"Lead Storm" powered minigun;
Build: xAxxx, Lead Storm. 14 damage, 3000 ammo, 0 clip. 262.5Krs.
(Potentially doubled with blowthrough, assuming 100% usage.)
"Thunderhead" Heavy Autocannon;
Build; CxCxx, Composite Drums. 18 damage, 9 area damage, 770 ammo, 110 clip. 148.5Krs.
(~3.5 targets per shot to match minigun)
"Bulldog" Heavy Revolver;
Build: xCxAx, Elephant rounds. 100 damage, 39 ammo, 3 clip. 26.25Krs
BRT7 Burst Fire Gun;
Build: AxBBx, Lead Spray. 39 damage, 192 ammo, 24 clip. 55Krs

Driller;
CRSPR Flamethrower;
Build: AACCx, Lighter Tanks. 15 damage, 525 ammo, 75 clip. 56.25Krs
(Again, this is against a single target with no burn)
Cryo Cannon;
Build: xAxAx, Ice Storm. 18 damage, 400 ammo, 0 clip. 45Krs
(Against single targets only)
Subata 120;
Build: BACBx, Oversized Magazine.15 damage, 240 ammo, 27 clip. 22.5Krs
Experimental Plasma Charger;
Build: AxxBx, Heavy Hitter. 40 damage, 112 ammo, 0 clip. 28Krs.

Engineer;
"Warthog" Auto 210;
Build: BBCBx, Mini Shells. 6x10 (60) damage, 180 ammo, 17 clip. 73.875Krs
"Stubby" Voltaic SMG;
Build: AAAxA, Light-Weight Rounds. 12 damage, 600 ammo, 60 clip. 49.5Krs
Deepcore 40mm PGL;
Build: Yeah... I'm going to skip this one.
Breach Cutter;
Build: I'm skipping this one too...

Scout;
Deepcore GK2;
Build: xBBxx, Compact Ammo. 16 damage, 450 ammo, 30 clip. 48Krs
M1000 Classic;
Build: AxBCx, Hipster. 30 damage, 224 ammo, 14 clip. 44Krs
Jury-Rigged Boomstick;
Build: BxBxx, Stuffed Shells. 16x9 (144) damage, 40 shockwave damage, 36 ammo, 2 clip. 43.7Krs
Zhukov Nuk17;
Build: AAACx, Gas Recycling. 18 damage, 825 max ammo, 60 clip. 99.563Krs

Final Conclusions

I'm probably wrong on a lot of these points. About 75% of the way through I realized that the theoretical max damage rating was either wrong or not the right number to maximize in order to maximize Karls (even though it seems like it should be).

The GK2 has almost no overclocks that increase Krs. Same with the EPC (here mainly because a lot of them affect charge shots).

The Minigun remains ammo economy king.
The Minigun has the largest improvement of any weapon, increasing by 112.5Krs
The BRT has the largest relative improvement, with its Krs increasing by 205%. This barely edges out the Cryo Cannon's 200% improvement.
The Subata has the least improvement of any weapon, improving by a measly 9.6Krs. Runner-up is the M100, with an improvement of 11.5Krs.
Lowest Relative improvement goes to the M1000 (35% increase), with the GK2 in a close second (36% increase).
The ammo economy ranking is still Gunner>Engineer>Scout>Driller (Against single targets)

Poor Driller

Remember that all of these calculations are against a single target (with Autocannon giving the required target average to match the minigun). Driller's Krs are actually much higher, but it's difficult to judge.
If we assume that there are now 5 targets instead of 1, both of Driller's primary Krs are multiplied by 5 while everyone else doesn't see much of an improvement. It would only take 7 targets to match the minigun's Krs (ignoring burn) before upgrades, and only 5 targets with upgrades.

I hope this was at least worth the read. I have a feeling that a lot of this is going to change; I don't know if I have the best builds for everything, and I would appreciate help correcting my errors.

[Black Hammer]

An interesting read to be sure. Fun to see the math, because I often consider ammo efficiency in my upgrades, something a lot of people disregard.

It does raise two questions as well:

1. The Engi turret also gets ammo. Obvious, if you want the most Krs you want the single upgraded turret, but people swear by the double turrets even though half the time one is out of ammo or out of position, or both are merrily spraying a waste of bullets into front armor. I wonder what the math on those would look like.

2. Driller suffers for three reasons. You caught two: area damage and secondary effects (burn or freeze have other value). The third is that none of the calculations include overkill, as far as I can tell. A lot of Gunner's theoretical Krs output is wasted on misses or overkill. While the Driller's raw damage per nitra is far lower, the flamethrower has effectively 100% accuracy and can be tapped extremely efficiently to leave burn effects that will kill enemies themselves over time.

[Cactus-Cat]

I found a few mistakes in your calculaions.

The minigun and zhukovs use 2 ammo per bullet fired and they have only half of the Krs.

The EPC can have a higher Krs rating with TCF builds even against single targets. 2X122 has
49,5 Krs, if you use axes to trigger the implosion it will have 63 Krs.

The Subata has a higher Krs with explosive reload, homebrew powder and chain hit.
2132X with explosive reload has 36,1 Krs

[Derpykat5]

Originally posted by Lokimut:

I found a few mistakes in your calculaions.

The minigun and zhukovs use 2 ammo per bullet fired and they have only half of the Krs.

The EPC can have a higher Krs rating with TCF builds even against single targets. 2X122 has
49,5 Krs, if you use axes to trigger the implosion it will have 63 Krs.

They use two ammo, but they fire two bullets, each dealing damage (at least in the zhukov's case). Maybe the minigun will have halved Krs, but that still puts it above all the other weapons.

[Katitoff]

Driller mains for obvious and mentioned reasons shouldn't even be considered here at all as its impossible to get anything even remotely accurate due to how they work.

[Cactus-Cat]

Originally posted by derpykat5:

They use two ammo, but they fire two bullets, each dealing damage (at least in the zhukov's case). Maybe the minigun will have halved Krs, but that still puts it above all the other weapons.

I'm 100% sure the zhukovs have halved damage like the minigun. If you use a build with 10 damage you need 20 ammo to kill a lootbug and they have 100 health.

[>< V ><]

I don't see that there is any value in damage per nitra. Accuracy is too important to ignore. Ignoring accuracy means one should predict that less accurate weapons will be more ammo efficient. So I don't see that there is any revelation here. It's what one would expect when one ignores accuracy.


A number that would have value would be "Actual damage done" per nitra.

[Pyro]

Originally posted by >< V ><:

I don't see that there is any value in damage per nitra. Accuracy is too important to ignore. Ignoring accuracy means one should predict that less accurate weapons will be more ammo efficient. So I don't see that there is any revelation here. It's what one would expect when one ignores accuracy.


A number that would have value would be "Actual damage done" per nitra.

While accuracy is definitely a valid concern for most builds (Carpet Bomber being the big exception), the general point about stored damage is still valid. I place a high priority on this when planning most of my builds and generally require a very good reason to drift away from it because stored damage is what kills bugs and nitra supplies are limited.

[BattleMouth]

Very nice read and will help me with loadouts

[>< V ><]

Originally posted by Diablo48:

Originally posted by >< V ><:

I don't see that there is any value in damage per nitra. Accuracy is too important to ignore. Ignoring accuracy means one should predict that less accurate weapons will be more ammo efficient. So I don't see that there is any revelation here. It's what one would expect when one ignores accuracy.


A number that would have value would be "Actual damage done" per nitra.

While accuracy is definitely a valid concern for most builds (Carpet Bomber being the big exception), the general point about stored damage is still valid. I place a high priority on this when planning most of my builds and generally require a very good reason to drift away from it because stored damage is what kills bugs and nitra supplies are limited.

It may be valid, but it's not sound.

Stored damage does not kill bugs. Stored damage doesn't kill anything, because it's stored.

This analysis then assumes that "stored damage" translates, 100%, to "actual damage done", when it doesn't even come close to that for some weapons, like the minigun. Even if the minigun hits at 50%, that means the number in this analysis is cut in half when translating to actual damage done.

The effects of accuracy on this analysis are by no means, insignificant. And if one is going to choose to ignore something in an analysis, then what is being ignored better be insignificant, or at the every least, negligible.

A 50% error in a number is significant.

[DD The Pumpkin King]

Cool read. Reflects my experience really well. ^_^

Figured most of this doing a little light math myself. Funny enough, the exercise with gunner became spending all of my ammo. Most of it hits too, on weak points.

[MrPurple33]

Ah, derpykat- you're one of the good ones

Let me say all my positives here --

1) Any time someone posts about DRG using "Science" even if it may be flawed or just imaginative, It's Cool- good work
2) The fact you made your measurement variable "Karls" - very nice, very Dwarven
3) Well thought out, Logically stated, and Presented (and people say MY Posts get Lengthy) - you put in a Lot of time
4) Things Like this show how INTO DRG we can all sometimes get, for our Love of this game- I know I have in the past

Negatives- well, not really, just some discussions on some of your conclusions --

First off you make a Lot of very good points, and try to show the "math" via the "Karl" variable system to back it up - do I 100% agree? No- but at Least 80%, and any arguments now mostly have to be measured by your "Karls" system- that's where good science and discourse starts

I have seen myself, that overall Gunner DOES tend to have the most Ammo Efficency- Minigun, Autcannon, and BRT Pistol- the Bulldog is the only one that Lacks a bit

Depending on the build, OC and accuraccy of the player, It's a toss up if the Minigun or AC has better ammo economy- for example, the minigun tends to spit out a few extra bullets revving up, while the AC you can choose a single shot, 3-4 round burst, or just unleash

Also the way I built my AC with the Big Bertha OC- 330 rounds vs my traditional 440 over 18 months or so, I was worried about ammo- but the big damage increase has shown me I actually use LESS ammo with 330 than I used to - either way, agree- Gunner has some great ammo reserve usage

was also pleasantly surprised than one of your stats showed Engie's Shotgun as being so good with ammo - I've always felt that, and rarely completly run out with it - as a funny side effect I over-rely on it, and save up on my 11 Grenade Launcher shells- so much so, that when it is time to order a resupply, I find I have 18-22 Shotgun Shells, but 4-5 GL rounds- I actually get to "play" and expend my excess GL rounds on say single Grunts or Web Spitters- gleeful overkill because I'm about to restock ^_^

The Driller Flamethrower and Cryo measurements ARE tricky - depending on range, swarm size and accuracy and "spread" technique it can vary greatly-- I know with my FT build and the Sticky Flames OC, I get excellent ammo/fuel rates, even though I do a small 50 cannister/300 ammo build

EPC vs Subata - this is tricky too- the fact the EPC has ZERO reload means you can really run out of ammo MUCH faster than the Subata, and that's before charged shots get added in

As for the Subata by Itself, well,,,,, I pride myself on being a Gold-Plated, Pearl-Handled Subata Gunslinger - It really IS secretly one of the best guns in DRG - agree with one of your conclusions that overall the Subata doesn't "grow" much or get hugely "better" but does start off ahead of many other weapons

A few things about Scout's weapons--

The Zhukov SMGs, while good, fun, and useful, burn through ammo at a VERY fast rate- I think they're "Krl" stat should be Lower- I burn through 750 rounds really quick

The Boomstick- I have re-fallen in Love with this since around Feb- If you can time your shots right, and get close up IN THE FACE of Grunts, and on weakspots of Praes, Wardens, etc- this seemingly Limited ammo, 2-shots-and-reload shottie can be surpisingly ammo efficent

the Deepcore AR - after Gunner's weapons, really, REALLY good ammo efficincy- I run the 400+ rounds -- and there IS one OC which amps the AR into overdrive- the AI Stability Engine- it has ZERO Recoil, meaning you are dead-on accurate at ANY range- pretty much 93% of your shots (or more) will always hit, at any range- even when grappling all over the place

I'd put the AI Stability Engine as one of the Top 10 OCs PERIOD- any defintiley the #1 BEST one for Scout- as much as I still Love my M1000, especially my Fourth Relic version, and still use it when the mood takes me- an AI Stabilized Deepcore AR outclasses it in everyway and Let's you re-bind the gun in other ways too - the Stability Let's mine fire slightly slower/ROF by 2- but i get more damage, Armor Piercing, and near-constant Stun - I actually gun down Praes, Dreads and Bulk Ds pretty quickly with it now


Again derpy- excellent post- starting some good discussions !!

Rock and Stone !!

[Pyro]

Originally posted by >< V ><:

Originally posted by Diablo48:

While accuracy is definitely a valid concern for most builds (Carpet Bomber being the big exception), the general point about stored damage is still valid. I place a high priority on this when planning most of my builds and generally require a very good reason to drift away from it because stored damage is what kills bugs and nitra supplies are limited.

It may be valid, but it's not sound.

Stored damage does not kill bugs. Stored damage doesn't kill anything, because it's stored.

This analysis then assumes that "stored damage" translates, 100%, to "actual damage done", when it doesn't even come close to that for some weapons, like the minigun. Even if the minigun hits at 50%, that means the number in this analysis is cut in half when translating to actual damage done.

The effects of accuracy on this analysis are by no means, insignificant. And if one is going to choose to ignore something in an analysis, then what is being ignored better be insignificant, or at the every least, negligible.

A 50% error in a number is significant.

...Have you even used the minigun? It's like a laser once it gets spun up. Just kill a grunt or two at short range to get it moving and you can precisely pick things off from the other side of the cave with minimal waste. Frankly, it's one of the best weapons in the game for turning stored damage into dead enemies and is only really beaten by a few more specialized builds like a GK2 with AI Stability Engine.

Honestly, if you want to talk about not getting the most out of your shots, you should be looking at the shotguns. Those actually do have a habit of scattering damage into the dirt and wasting damage overkilling mostly dead enemies so they do tend to waste a significant amount of potential damage unlike the minigun.

[Cacomistle]

Originally posted by Diablo48:

Originally posted by >< V ><:

It may be valid, but it's not sound.

Stored damage does not kill bugs. Stored damage doesn't kill anything, because it's stored.

This analysis then assumes that "stored damage" translates, 100%, to "actual damage done", when it doesn't even come close to that for some weapons, like the minigun. Even if the minigun hits at 50%, that means the number in this analysis is cut in half when translating to actual damage done.

The effects of accuracy on this analysis are by no means, insignificant. And if one is going to choose to ignore something in an analysis, then what is being ignored better be insignificant, or at the every least, negligible.

A 50% error in a number is significant.

...Have you even used the minigun? It's like a laser once it gets spun up. Just kill a grunt or two at short range to get it moving and you can precisely pick things off from the other side of the cave with minimal waste. Frankly, it's one of the best weapons in the game for turning stored damage into dead enemies and is only really beaten by a few more specialized builds like a GK2 with AI Stability Engine.

Honestly, if you want to talk about not getting the most out of your shots, you should be looking at the shotguns. Those actually do have a habit of scattering damage into the dirt and wasting damage overkilling mostly dead enemies so they do tend to waste a significant amount of potential damage unlike the minigun.

I don't think the minigun is one of the better weapons for that. Maybe compared to like shotguns and such, but I think the best weapons for converting "stored damage" into real damage are weapons like the gk2.

For multiple reasons. First of all, its accurate from the start. Second of all, it doesn't overkill. And third, its easy to chain into melee. If you see like 4-5 glyphids, you can say kill 2 of them, then headshot the other 3 and finish them with melee. In the end, that can take like 10 bullets total. And that will be pretty safe to do (even without scouts ability to just grapple away any time he takes damage). Whereas the minigun, its difficult to chain melee hits in because you unspin, its very easy to overkill targets, and its inaccurate for its first bullets.

So I'd say engineer smg, and gk2 are the best at converting damage. Maybe zhukovs if you're conservative. From there it kind of depends. The engineers shotgun is actually not bad if you only fire at close range, there's weapons like the bulldog, and scout's sniper which are accurate but overkill targets so you can only convert damage effectively against certain enemies. And there's the minigun, where it overkills a bit (unless you switch targets very quickly after killing one), and its accuracy is good but only after its been running for a second. There's Weapons like flamethrower/breach cutter/grenade launcher, where the calculation is hard and very dependent on how many targets you hit. And last there's like scouts shotgun, which overkills and has bad accuracy.

I'd say its only definitively better at converting damage to ammo than the scout shotgun. Every other weapon depends too much on playstyle and other factors to really say for sure.

[ARZIAC]

This is definitely a scientific look at the ammo economy, probably one of the best in the community. Looking at each of your calculations to say the Warthog and M1000, I do feel that the math you have behind the gameplay checks out.

So in your Round 2, the build suggestions you have listed are theoretically the best builds for ammo, do you find any builds that make weapons WEAKER than they should be or no?

EDIT: Testing the Warthog build rn, and it's actually not too bad, but I might prefer my regular loadout of: BACBx with Cycle Overload, but i'm experimenting with a middleground between your suggested build and mine to combine damage and ammo.


Also, Turret Whip might be a good choice for ammo economy, because one shot at a turret can deal much more damage than the turret and Warthog could deal combined if they fired a round once each.

[King Fossil]

Originally posted by Lokimut:

The minigun and zhukovs use 2 ammo per bullet fired and they have only half of the Krs.

This is why the devs need to fix the ammo display already. All it does is confuse people and it has no positives in any way. Even people who've been playing ages still get tricked because the game lies to them.