Grenade Launcher: Incendiary vs. Armor Break

[MoronicCinamun]

I've reached the point where my resources are scarce as I'm trying to unlock and upgrade new guns at once.

I grabbed the fire damage upgrade for the PGL due to resources available, and it's pretty underwhelming. I dare say it's strictly worse, although that said I've not gotten the armor break yet but if it works how I think it does, it breaks armor (WOAH!)

The main issue with the fire damage is the conversion; I'm hoping the total damage when you factor in blast + DoT is better, but the fact still remains that even basic warriors won't die instantly. They'll die quickly, but there will still be that time when they are burning that your turrets will still waste ammo on them, which wouldn't happen if it just offed them instantly.

The damage seems kind of nice against the shellbacks and other big armor guys, but just tearing off their armor seems way more synergistic, allowing you to switch to another gun and/or making things easier for your turrets and friends.

Am I missing something, is there some hidden gem for the flame damage? It might be better for single play, that's about all I can think of. I imagine the 50% incendiary damage conversion for the scout's sawed off has the same issue.

[MoronicCinamun]

secondary question: How exactly does the heat-damage conversion work? Does putting more heat on a burning enemy make the burning last longer, or does it change the actual damage dealt per second?

How would the flaming GL work with a flamethrower firing on the same target?

[Chibbity]

I can't get into "behind the scenes" specifics of how heat build up works as I don't exactly know them but I like the Incendiary myself, combined with remote det, and all AOE.

Yes, you are correct they take a bit to die, but that's often fine as they appeared on a wall or a ceiling a ways away. You can literally blast an entire "spawn group" with one grenade.

Flame DOT + SMG Debuff/DOT synergizes well together for the ultimate debuff/support build.

[MoronicCinamun]

I kind of get what you're saying, but wouldn't it be better to just do the damage instantly up front, so you don't need to debuff them?

I'm hoping a Dev will comment on the actual mechanics of it, I've been going by the "see more" description on the upgrade screen, I've seen them around giving some very nice explanations of some of the other mechanics (such as the armor + breaking).

[Chibbity]

Originally posted by MoronicCinamun:

I kind of get what you're saying, but wouldn't it be better to just do the damage instantly up front, so you don't need to debuff them?

If you were alone sure.

This is a team game though.

[Shevek]

I have the armor break. IDK it doesn't seem that useful to be honest, is not like breaking armor with rapid fire weapons like the scout AR. It seems like the game somewhat calculate the armor break per shot. Maybe I'm wrong, If I am then someone illuminates me about how it really works.

[MoronicCinamun]

Originally posted by Balthair:

I have the armor break. IDK it doesn't seem that useful to be honest, is not like breaking armor with rapid fire weapons like the scout AR. It seems like the game somewhat calculate the armor break per shot. Maybe I'm wrong, If I am then someone illuminates me about how it really works.

That kind of makes sense, as Dev has confirmed in other threads that AoE weapons (including the flame thrower and I guess the Cryo too) ignore armor and "always do full damage"

wonder how these interact with the spiky-mod that adds the impact damage now that I think about it.

[MrPurple33]

Pretty Much you want Armor Break for almost all of the weapons- after the Autocannon and Minigun, Engie's Grenade Launcher has maybe the best Armor Break in the Game- Smashes Large Groups of Bugs, but Praetorians it Mangles- especially once you get the aim down with the sights, you can Pop Praetorians from a Looooong way away, usually in two or three hits

Combine the Armor Break with the Proximity Charge, and have such fun Smacking Mactera Mid-Air with one shot- the Flies you can sometimes get 3 or 4 at a time !!

[Studio Kimchi]

Doesn't seem worth it since the nerf, since if I understand correctly the direct dmg + burn is now simply equal to the dmg you'd do if you didn't have the mod. I don't think there's any special debuff for burning status (like there is for electrocution) other than DoT, is there?

[hotmatrixx]

Originally posted by Studio Kimchi:

Doesn't seem worth it since the nerf, since if I understand correctly the direct dmg + burn is now simply equal to the dmg you'd do if you didn't have the mod. I don't think there's any special debuff for burning status (like there is for electrocution) other than DoT, is there?

Originally posted by Balthair:

I have the armor break. IDK it doesn't seem that useful to be honest, is not like breaking armor with rapid fire weapons like the scout AR. It seems like the game somewhat calculate the armor break per shot. Maybe I'm wrong, If I am then someone illuminates me about how it really works.

Just to clarify a couple of little things here.

Armour is calculated as a separate "thing" to the body of the bug. You have to break through armour before your dead bullets will do damage to the areas under the armour. Of course if you shoot the "fleshy bits" then you're basically just shooting around the armour, and in that case armour break is not so important. Armour has a 50% defence against standard bullets by default.

Of course, those two pieces of information are what make this next part interesting.
Fire, like all AOE ignores armour altogether, meaning that 50% of your grenade damage is potentially wasted against the armour, but the other 50% will do 100% of its damage against the bugs through the armour.

On the other hand "armour breaking" removes the armour a lot more efficiently allowing everyone to be able to shoot at it without having to pick your shots- it also makes them a lot easier pickings for your turrets.

I don't want to go so far as to recommend one mod over the other, I just like to help you to understand how both of these choices work a little better. On harder difficulties, armour breaking will remove armour from almost anything with one shot, seriously softening up the targets. But doing less direct damage overall to heavily armoured bugs. Fire damage will seriously reduce their health pool, meaning that the next person that shoots them in a squishy spot will have an easier time of it. The downside is that they will still have to break through all the armour if they are shooting at that, and the TTK is increased in realation to the DoT of the Fire.

[BROLY 32]

Armor break is a really valuable thing to have on any gun imo (more than penetration).

I also take it on the minigun even tho I heard the stun upgrade is really good. I really like breaking armor, especially on the rolling thingy. Games feel a lot harder when no one has an armor break upgrade in the team.

[Shevek]

Originally posted by Wiawyr:

I always rolls with armor-breaking on the GL. For the targets you should be hitting with it, making them all vulnerable to further damage outweighs the benefit of a small DoT, assuming your team isn't choking to death on their beards in the drop pod.

I also use it because of that but it seems like is not as useful as the armor break on the AR or Gunner's weapons. I mean I shoot many grenades to the rollers and they still have their armor and I wasted lots of ammo, on other hand the Scout's AR shreds its armor fast. Maybe I have to test it more and I'm mistaken.

[Horoai]

Incendiary used to be my go-to choice before the patch but they changed how it works with the flamethrower rework and those changes amount to a heavy nerf. The initial deal in that peer was a neat choice:

1) Take armor breaking so your grenades strip horde enemies of their armor for the benefit of your thrown grenades, turrets and teammates. More importantly you get to deal with preats and those rolling beasties properly.

2) Take incendiary making you ignore armor in the first place so you can right out kill horde enemies. Lose the ability to deal with preats and rolling beasties in turn. (You can still shred armor with turret whip though)

The problem is, given those nerfs you don't actually deal enough fire damage anymore to outright kill glyphids unless you get really high damage bonus from proximity trigger. Even then, it takes upwards of 10 entire seconds to burn through their health bar.
That's just unacceptedly bad and I don't really see the point in this upgrade anymore. Even worse, I suspect the fire effects from multiple incendiary grenades don't stack despite of how long they take to burn through. If that's a fact then you might actually be better off taking no upgrade whatsoever in many situations.

[MoronicCinamun]

Originally posted by hotmatrixx:

Originally posted by Balthair:

I have the armor break. IDK it doesn't seem that useful to be honest, is not like breaking armor with rapid fire weapons like the scout AR. It seems like the game somewhat calculate the armor break per shot. Maybe I'm wrong, If I am then someone illuminates me about how it really works.

Just to clarify a couple of little things here.



Of course, those two pieces of information are what make this next part interesting.
Fire, like all AOE ignores armour altogether, meaning that 50% of your grenade damage is potentially wasted against the armour, but the other 50% will do 100% of its damage against the bugs through the armour.

.

See I swear that it's been said in multiple threads, although I can't find from the Dev specifically (or it's just missing the Dev tag), that explosives, just like other AOEs like the flamer and cryo cannon, ignore both armor and weakspots, and just do damage straight to the enemy's health (I guess Dreadnoughts are a special case, obviously their 'armor' doesn't work the same). Therefore, you *aren't* gaining any anti-armor ability with the incendiary, if anything you're losing it if the mechanics work how the tooltip says and certain enemy's can "cool faster".

But that's assuming what I've read elsewhere is true, maybe things were changed in some version or another, I'm new enough to not know.

[MoronicCinamun]

although from the knowledge I've gained the related fire damage conversion upgrade for the scout's shotgun might be more worth it, since it will add some flesh-damage if you accidentally hit the the armor, but it's also reducing weakpoint bonus I believe (unless the conversion happens after that calculation, we're getitng into Path of Exile territory now ;)