Engineer too strong?

[Kwisatz]

I have been holding back on voicing my observations, but after having played since Update 18 with now 200+ h under the belt I want to ask the community and perhaps the devs: please fix the Engie!

Let's start with the most obvious observation: in an evenly skilled team, Engie always comes first with most kills. I know the game is not about how many kills you make and that the scout for example is supposed to mine and kill the big bugs, but the amount of damage the Engie can output is just ridiculous and totally puts the Gunner to shame, the class that is actually supposed to be the heavy hitter.

The MKII deals huge amounts of damage while being 100 % accurate and even has a pretty good range.

The Shotgun or the Stubby actual feel pretty balanced for a primary.

I personaly never use the breach cutter because...

... the grenade launcher is just insane! It is insanely fun to use and surely my favorite weapon in the game but seriously, the damage it deals to mobs... with the right mods it easily sends tens of glyphids flying and breaks the armor off of another ten with just one well placed grenade. And you got 8 (!) of them. Compare that to the secondary pistol of the Driller for example, which takes several well placed shots to the weak spot just to kill an ordinary glyphid. Even the Driller's HE grenades are a lot weaker than the GL, and with half the ammo. The GL with the extended blast radius is also great against swarmers, almost makes the Driller's flamethrower obsolete.

All in all the Engie just excells at every range: short with shotgun, medium with the GL and medium - long with the turret. He also got the platforms that allow more mobility than the ziplines and even negate most fall damage with the right mod. Plus now he has the lure grenade that is one of the most powerful grenades in the game. Especially coupled with... you guessed it, the grenade launcher.

Long story short: the Engie feels a bit cheap to play in comparison to the other classes. I feel like he outclasses especially the Gunner and Driller in most fields. The grenade launcher in particular seems a bit OP, maybe lower the ammo count or something.

Am I the only one who feels like there is a glaring class-imbalance in favour of the Engie? What do you think?

[Bandit Hadron]

...You use grenades & flamethrowers against SWARMERS? My, what a wasteful fellow you are.

[Chibbity]

Engi only gets most kills due to small targets like swarmers and jellyfish.

Keep in mind that even a Dreadnaught/Bulk Detonator only count as one kill.

But yeah; the turret buffs were a bit much, I've been saying all along they didn't need buffing. They are only one small part of his already excellent kit. People kept complaining though so..here we are.

[Coffeefiend]

Originally posted by Chibbity:

Engi only gets most kills due to small targets like swarmers and jellyfish.
Keep in mind that even a Dreadnaught/Bulk Detonator only count as one kill.

^Mostly this^, the kill stat is always horribly skewed.
Also the fact that the turret isn't affected by latency that much (can get kind of unresponsive though) doesn't help the gunner.
On the other hand kills don't necessarily corelate to damage. If I play gunner and see a swarm of big bugs I spray bullets in their general direction, soften them up and peel of their armor. Should I get angry at ie a scout that picks them off one by one after that or isn't it just teamwork as intended?

Holo grenade and his turret/grenade launcher have strong synergy, yes. Like ice grenades and a hard hitting sniper rifle. Or the ability to create additional fire lanes for a class that excels at...shooting.

The grenade launcher is pretty good, wouldn't mind if it couldn't wipe out swarms with a single shot...on the other hand it's a freaking grenade launcher and you kind of expect that kind of damage. I honestly don't care that much.
Breach cutter on the other hand is a bit meh imo. I haven't tried all upgrades yet but it feels very lackluster in comparison. The concept is great, but it's just not that good even in situations where it's supposed to shine. Why run the wannabe grenade launcher when you can have the real thing?

[Neozoon]

Depends, if you use Grenade Launcher you usually kill all of the enemies one second before the Plasma Ball of the Driller reaches them.
When use the Breach Cutter you usually get a lower kill output, except if you have a superflat area where you can hit all enemies.

[Horoai]

Actually the driller is fully on par with engineer in kill count and general power vs various enemy types. Often enough driller even comes out ahead and then has the superior utility of offering freeze (bonus damage vs bosses, prevent bulk detonations) and his drill kit for the team.
Platforms are only the best tool to have during salvage operations.

But yes, as mentioned in the other thread, his weapons could stand to have a little less ammo all around (maybe safe for the breach cutter).

Originally posted by Chibbity:

But yeah; the turret buffs were a bit much, I've been saying all along they didn't need buffing. They are only one small part of his already excellent kit. People kept complaining though so..here we are.

Yes they're powerful but oh boy... I just love them. Can we keep them anyway please?

[Chibbity]

Hey, I'm not gonna complain, I'm an Engi main too lol!

[Manperor of Mankind]

If anything I think some of the other classes need buffs.
But nerfs for a class that is so fun and rewarding to play..? No, please.

[Madder Red]

Rather buff other classes to bring em up to par.
Calling for nerfs in an purely co-op games is ridiculous.

[Fuzzy the imperfect]

Play the other classes more.

Example: gunner does more damage than other three combined, but does not often get the finishing blow.

Your examples are apples and oranges. Comparing the damage output of a weapon with 8 shots compared to one that has 140. Assuming the most ideal condition for a grenade launcher, "tens of glyhphids" per shot. If that were true, every match would necessarily have to have at least 360 glyphids just for the engineer to kill with his secondary (20 minimum *8 shots *2 resupply). Comparing arguably the worst mobility option to the platforms while also ignoring the fall damage reduction ziplines get and the negating ability of drills and grappling gun.

Comparing the best of any class to the worst of every other class is going to make them appear OP. That does not make them OP.


Consider this tongue-in-cheek exercise on the scout:

Gets more AoE grenades than any class with the IFGs.
Does amazing single-target damage with the M1000.
Compare the M1000 with the engineers shotgun for instance. Terrible range, worse accuracy, no blowthrough, no fear, worthless against bulk-detonators...
Compare the same against the Gunner's primaries. By the time the gunner has just begun to hit the broad side of a pratorean a scout would have it dead at extreme range.
NUK has the most secondary weapon bullets and fires faster than any weapon with an amazingly fast reload speed that can even be increased.
Boomstick is a secondary with an AoE and fear.
Has weapon options to strip armor, fear, light on fire, and blowthrough multiple enemies with every bullet.
Can 100% negate all fall damage.
Has the best mobility option.
Is the fastest by far.
The only class with unlimited mobility ammunition.
Can light up entire caves and makes the rest of the team dependent on them.
Without a scout both resources and enemies are hidden in the inky blackness.
Can get to places no one else can easily, making the team dependent on them.
Makes the platform gun viable. Without a scout the plats run out fast.
Has, by far, the best throwable flares.
Can kite trivailly. Compare to the gunner that is slowed down by his weapon and cant easily get away.
The scout, when played with an equal amount of skill, will be the last alive every time.
The only class that can force glyphids to kill eachother. Combine pheremone canister or the IFGs with the boomstick and you can take out "tens of glyphids" with every trigger pull and have three times the shots as a GL...so long as they are swarmers ;).
No class is remotely competitive on clear speed.
The only class that can follow molly just about anywhere.

All in all the Scout just excels at every range- and has the farthest range, has both of the best illumination options, has the most powerful force-multiplier grenades, has the most utility options, and is, by far, the fastest and most mobile.

Long story short: the Scout feels a bit cheap to play in comparison to the other classes. I feel like he outclasses everyone in most fields. The grappling gun in particular seems a bit OP, maybe lower the ammo count or something.

[Bubs]

OP says engi is besti, but he doesn't use breachcutter. Also says the stubby pistol is equal to the shotgun. Also says grenade launcher is a beast.

I may agree with the grenade launcher if you don't mean vs large targets. The rest i can't understand. The breachcutter and stubby are the reasons engi is overpowered imo.

[Chibbity]

Meh, can't stand the BC personally.

Never been very impressed by watching others use it either.

[Horoai]

Originally posted by Madder Red:

Calling for nerfs in an purely co-op games is ridiculous.

Raising your entire lawn by an inch to match that odd blade of grass sticking out is ridiculous.

All games depend on balance not just pvp games.
Nerfing that single piece which ended up a little too powerful is way more reasonable than touching and buffing every single weapon, upgrade, perk and enemy to match and establish the new power level in the game and escalating powercreep in the process.

[Mushu]

I completely agree engineer is very strong. While a class being strong is par for the course in an early access game the major issue is that engineer basically does everything gunner does - and more. This is the major issue and is something that hopefully is being looked at.

His primaries don't slow him down and do narly burst damage. His secondaries provide both good horde clear and single target damage, regardless of which one you choose. His turrets have been buffed to high heaven giving him a great way of dealing with swarmers / jellyfish which gunner struggles with immensely. Engineer has so many platforms he can just build bridges, no need for ziplines and the LURE means he can revive during swarm - something only the gunner used to be able to effectively do.

I think this is why Engineer needs nerfs at this point, because he is overstepping his boundaries and making other classes redundant, and this needs to be railed in.

[Plagues]

I think the enji just brings way too much to the table. Great damage, great defense, platforms,taunt grenade.... All his weapons are solid in all situations.


This is going to sound blasphemous I'm sure.... But I'd like to see the gunner and engi switch gadgets. Give engi the zip lines, give gunner the turrets. It seems to fit his class more Imo. Make the gunner the offensive/defensive beast he should be

[Chibbity]

OMG no.

Engineers in any game are always the ones with the turrets, that's the entire point of the class.