More hulls in the fleet beats bigger ships?

[gmuir77]

I've been noodling around with optimal fleet configurations and the conclusion I'm coming up with is more ships beats bigger ships. Naturally, I want to stick a Jupiter-class in my fleet but unless I've got 8000 points to play with I'm effectively undermanned. The dynamics could be very different in multiplayer but in singleplayer you can't discount the value of additional munition slots.

While the Manticores are a bit squishy, their munition slot is just as good as one on a Ranger, even if it takes longer to reload. If I'm being a sneaky colonial and firing torps at max range at the slowest dradis contact assuming it's a heavy capital ship, I have an immense strike capability before the fleets actually make contact.

The Tl;DR on this seems to be get up to 7 in whatever fashion fits with your points cap, then only swap out for better units as your cap grows. There's just not much utility in having a couple heavy hitters in a low-point fleet with nothing leftover for escorts.

The other TL;DR is that the colonial fleet obviously did not have a proper combined arms doctrine because they couldn't decide if they wanted frontal assault ships or broadside ships. (Which fits with the lore since these ships are cobbled together from multiple independent navies.) The Ranger has very good nose guns and they can't come into play if they're trying to keep formation with the fleet wall. I guess the smart tactic with them, given that they're relatively squishy, is the capital guns are for finishing targets, not cracking them open. You charge into battle with a Ranger and you get squished.

[Supreme Doge]

I would say that higher ship numbers don't always beat bigger ships. It always comes down to who's in charge. You can easily beat more numerous fleets using beefier ships by just simply playing it smart and preventing enemy from taking advantage of their numbers. You can deploy mines, create dense flak fields, force the enemy fleet into asteroid fields or do other things to mitigate their numerous advantage. At the same time, more ships can definitely take down beefier ships by engaging the same hull locations or simply overwhelming them. Same with more numerous squadrons aka death by a thousand cuts.

[gmuir77]

I'm still experimenting. Fighters tend to get cut to ribbons. The mine munitions seem to be of little use. Deploying mines and hoping someone blunders into them doesn't seem to beat a facefull of torps. Probably some things I could do smarter. Flak seems difficult to employ properly. I think part of it is getting a sense of what the enemy is likely to do and react to it before they do.

Seems like it's a good idea if outnumbered to open the fight by running so you draw his fighters out, defeat them in detail, then repair your fighters and turn to engage the capships.

[OMG My Profile Name Does Not Fi]

Originally posted by gmuir77:

I'm still experimenting. Fighters tend to get cut to ribbons. The mine munitions seem to be of little use. Deploying mines and hoping someone blunders into them doesn't seem to beat a facefull of torps. Probably some things I could do smarter. Flak seems difficult to employ properly. I think part of it is getting a sense of what the enemy is likely to do and react to it before they do.

Seems like it's a good idea if outnumbered to open the fight by running so you draw his fighters out, defeat them in detail, then repair your fighters and turn to engage the capships.

From what I have seen fighters are very powerful still at least in normal mode. Once you gain fighter superiority you can use them to provide a decent defence against missile or even torpedo strikes and also to run down damaged ships. Torpedos seem very powerful when used against slow ships or at very close range.


Yes retreating is a bit of a cheesy tactic but one that often works since the AI tends to spread its forces, both fighter and capitals out as it tries to follow you, allowing you to defeat them in detail.
You could probably pull some nasty tricks with mines in that scenario also against an AI.

[Supreme Doge]

Originally posted by gmuir77:

I'm still experimenting. Fighters tend to get cut to ribbons. The mine munitions seem to be of little use. Deploying mines and hoping someone blunders into them doesn't seem to beat a facefull of torps. Probably some things I could do smarter. Flak seems difficult to employ properly. I think part of it is getting a sense of what the enemy is likely to do and react to it before they do.

Seems like it's a good idea if outnumbered to open the fight by running so you draw his fighters out, defeat them in detail, then repair your fighters and turn to engage the capships.

If your fighters are getting cut to ribbons, then I'd recommend either deploying them later, when your ships are within firing distance of enemy ships as well as grouping them up in squadrons and targeting. Mines need smart placement, e.g. near asteroids or above your ships when in combat. Torps are a bit of a pain, but running sweepers in tandem with PCMs should work.

[gmuir77]

I hate giving up munition slots. Same with giving up viper slots. I do have the fighters grouped in squadrons. I've had mixed luck with intercepting missiles. Sometimes they're godly and sometimes they let them all through. What kills me is the cylon ships are very nimble. The Revenant dances out of the way of torps.

Do mines have much use in single player? It does not seem to do much to shape the battlefield. Hard to place them where enemy ships will run into them and, like I said, it's more useful to shoot the toaster in the face.

[OMG My Profile Name Does Not Fi]

Originally posted by gmuir77:

I hate giving up munition slots. Same with giving up viper slots. I do have the fighters grouped in squadrons. I've had mixed luck with intercepting missiles. Sometimes they're godly and sometimes they let them all through. What kills me is the cylon ships are very nimble. The Revenant dances out of the way of torps.

With Revenants I have almost the opposite experience as I hardly ever miss a torpedo barrage. But I only tend to fire them when they are already identified and also I tend to group my ships together so the direction the Revenant is going to move is very predictable. In fact torpedoes are my favourite anti-Revenant fallback in early at mid-game.

However if you spread your ships out a lot more or fire outside Id range then that is probably going to have a lot lower chance to hit unless you are really experienced at predicting what the ship is based on how fast the unID signatures move and how they will behave.

[AeQuArTz]

For me, If I ever use proximity mines as colonials, I'm gonna put them on all my munition slots and build a wall between the cylons and me so they can't get to me unless they go through a legal port of entr--- I mean... the only way they get to me is either taking the long way around or getting their armor blown to bits on one side.

I have also used mines as a cheeky way to finish off damaged enemy ships. Proximity mine, fatality style!

[Sabaithal]

I treat munitions as secondary weapons. They are useful to have, but I rely more on my fleets main weapons to deal damage. Berzerks for early-game and minotaurs for late-game will shred almost any fleet if used correct. Combine that with either flak from battlestars or chaff from sweepers and your fleet cannot be touched by enemy munitions either.

Battles usually end rather quickly with the right fleet composition if you maintain formation.

[gmuir77]

Originally posted by OMG My Profile Name Does Not Fi:

Originally posted by gmuir77:

I hate giving up munition slots. Same with giving up viper slots. I do have the fighters grouped in squadrons. I've had mixed luck with intercepting missiles. Sometimes they're godly and sometimes they let them all through. What kills me is the cylon ships are very nimble. The Revenant dances out of the way of torps.

With Revenants I have almost the opposite experience as I hardly ever miss a torpedo barrage. But I only tend to fire them when they are already identified and also I tend to group my ships together so the direction the Revenant is going to move is very predictable. In fact torpedoes are my favourite anti-Revenant fallback in early at mid-game.

However if you spread your ships out a lot more or fire outside Id range then that is probably going to have a lot lower chance to hit unless you are really experienced at predicting what the ship is based on how fast the unID signatures move and how they will behave.

What they tend to do is slide away from me when I fire. Almost seems like the computer is doing a bit of a cheat, seeing what I intend and then reacting vs. the way two human players would act -- guessing what the other's intent is, giving orders and then seeing "Oh crap, he really did think I was in range and I thought I could get one turn closer. This is going to hurt."

I think vs. the computer I just need to wait a bit longer. The large capships I can snipe from a great distance but the smaller ones I need to wait until basically point blank, like when I give the firing order the torps are hitting towards the middle of that turn.

[gmuir77]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

I treat munitions as secondary weapons. They are useful to have, but I rely more on my fleets main weapons to deal damage. Berzerks for early-game and minotaurs for late-game will shred almost any fleet if used correct. Combine that with either flak from battlestars or chaff from sweepers and your fleet cannot be touched by enemy munitions either.

Battles usually end rather quickly with the right fleet composition if you maintain formation.

What's a late-game fleet for you?

I didn't get the use for berks early on and I can see now that they have their use but you have to be very canny using them. Put more enticing targets in range of the cylons and keep the berks basically sniping from a distance. Also, the attitude and turret thing is tricksy. They need to be below the target to get the best bearing. Above the target, they have nothing to shoot with. I'm a slow study but I'm getting there.

[Sabaithal]

Originally posted by gmuir77:

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

I treat munitions as secondary weapons. They are useful to have, but I rely more on my fleets main weapons to deal damage. Berzerks for early-game and minotaurs for late-game will shred almost any fleet if used correct. Combine that with either flak from battlestars or chaff from sweepers and your fleet cannot be touched by enemy munitions either.

Battles usually end rather quickly with the right fleet composition if you maintain formation.

What's a late-game fleet for you?

I didn't get the use for berks early on and I can see now that they have their use but you have to be very canny using them. Put more enticing targets in range of the cylons and keep the berks basically sniping from a distance. Also, the attitude and turret thing is tricksy. They need to be below the target to get the best bearing. Above the target, they have nothing to shoot with. I'm a slow study but I'm getting there.

Berzerks are cheap, and they come with a squadron with high evasion score, higher than almost any other colonial ship hangers. They can be produced en masse early-game, have great range, and have a broad vertical field of fire. Most of the time my berzerks are a bit above enemy ships, and as long as they don't get too far below, the turrets have no problem hitting the enemy. Enemy ships above the berzerks have about the same field of fire. Its usually surprisingly generous.

That being said, their range and overall damage is outclassed by the minotaur. Two minotaurs have more firepower than three berzerks, and end up being essential to most of my fleets. Downside is, no squadrons, but I have other ships for that.

A mid-game fleet for me is two artemis, two minotaurs, and usually 2 adamants or rangers, with a possible third adamant. A late-game fleet is two jupiters/minervas (depends on the fleet role), two minotaurs, and usually 2 janus, or 3 adamants.

[OMG My Profile Name Does Not Fi]

Originally posted by gmuir77:

What they tend to do is slide away from me when I fire. Almost seems like the computer is doing a bit of a cheat, seeing what I intend and then reacting vs. the way two human players would act -- guessing what the other's intent is, giving orders and then seeing "Oh crap, he really did think I was in range and I thought I could get one turn closer. This is going to hurt."

I think vs. the computer I just need to wait a bit longer. The large capships I can snipe from a great distance but the smaller ones I need to wait until basically point blank, like when I give the firing order the torps are hitting towards the middle of that turn.

Interesting you should mention the enemy ships "sliding" as I have seen a Nemesis do that and even the odd Arachne but not a Revenant so far. Waiting till slightly closer range is a good idea if you have difficulty hitting them for any reason. I should also add my experiences are based on playing on Standard mode not the highest difficulty.