New Air Conditioner

[Whack it and hope]

Anyone got any advice that is easy to understand about the new air conditioners? I had a working set up on Europa that was heating air to pump into the base. Now whatever I do to it I get air coming out that is exactly the same temperature as the air going in.

[Shawn]

"Air Conditioners now start by wanting to move a fixed amount of energy to-or-from their input gas, with the equal and opposite transferring to the waste network.

The Air Conditioner speed is dependent on two main relationships. The first speed modifier is if the waste temperature is in the temperature direction the gas wants to be, with a slight increase in speed for greater deltas. If the waste temperature is counterproductive to the energy transfer process(i.e hot waste while cooling), then the machine will lose efficiency, going roughly at only 5% speed when the waste temperature is 150 degrees in the counter-productive direction. The second speed modifier is when the input or waste gas temperature is out of preferred ranges, with 100 K being a cold limit, -50 C to 100 C being optimal gas working temperatures, 400 C being about 33%, 600 C being 10%, and 1000 C bottoming out at 0%."

From the description.

I would guess that your waste side isn't set up within the new parameters?

[Baronet Eledan]

Originally posted by Shawn:

I would guess that your waste side isn't set up within the new parameters?

The problem is we're not seeing any energy transfer whatsoever. Example setup on my side:
Identical gas compositions (so we can ignore specific heat differences)
I have a section of "cold pipe" at around 8MPA && 264C, input and output are connected (closed loop, part of a larger system). I have a "hot pipe" connected to the waste output, around 6MPA && 604C (output is isolated to a single pipe segment for right now but that doesn't appear to be making a difference).
With the AC running at -200C, I am not seeing any temperature drop on the cold side or corresponding increase in temp on the single hot pipe segment.
I tried charging the single hot-pipe segment to 10MPA and there's no change in temps there either.
I just need a demonstration guide at this point. I was using a closed loop system for my furnace and it's completely broken after this update. (caught it before I completely nuked my cold side).

[DrLamp]

I would assume its because of the:

"If the waste temperature is counterproductive to the energy transfer process(i.e hot waste while cooling), then the machine will lose efficiency, going roughly at only 5% speed when the waste temperature is 150 degrees in the counter-productive direction."

So your hot side is 236 degrees hotter than the side you want to cool. The way I read it is that you are going to get very little (if any) cooling because the AC can't push any more heat energy into the hot side. The hot side is already too hot.

Cryo-cooling using A/C's and having those insanely hot 2500+ degree hot sides seems to have gone the way of the Dodo. Maybe I'm approaching it wrong, but they way the math works in my head is that with that temp difference you're looking at about 5% efficiency off the top because of the counter-productive direction. Then because of how hot the input is your losing probably around half of it again so that would give you like 2% efficiency. Also there may be a problem now with tying the input and output together in the same pipe as well.

I don't think Maxwell's demon is running our A/C's anymore. If we want to do any real cooling, we're going to have to pay a real price in power.

My biggest question from this update is: How exactly do we achieve temps less than 100K now, and is it even possible after these changes? The setting of -200C seems pointless now since that is 73.14K, below the lower threshold of the cooler. Rocketwerkz have stated that they dont want to change how the physics related to gasses currently works in game. However, I think we're at the point where real adiabatic heating and cooling, as opposed to magic box A/C's, is quickly approaching the point of becoming necessary.

[Teirdalin]

So basically, now you need a gas in the waste. It doesn't just take gas out of the air and toss it into waste, but rather takes heat out of the air and tosses it onto whatever gas is in the waste. So you'll need to chain cooling air.

For example, air condition with a tank and a loop from the input and output with the waste being a vent, then another air conditioner with the waste being attached to that one.

The first will cool to however cold it can get from the atmosphere, and then the next will cool to however cold it can get from that conditioners low point.


Spent a few hours trying to figure out the new air conditioning out with some tips from a nice guy on the discord till I finally have my Venus station working again.


---------
Fortunately we have an IC slot now, cools HUGE amounts of gas at once and also it takes way less energy, so that's nice.

[z18pla]

I've tested a bit new air conditioner, results:
idle power - 10W (joule/tick)
full power - 355W (constant)

heat transfer rate: ~11.2kW (temperature diff ~150K in correct direction) -> 0W (temp diff ~150K in wrong direction)
heat transfer rate: ~ 10.5kW if input gas temp == waste gas temp

"going roughly at only 5% speed when the waste temperature is 150 degrees in the counter-productive direction" - this is not true. It looks like exponentional decay with zero transfer @ 150K tdiff (look at table below).

One more bad result: due to "Air Conditioners now start by wanting to move a fixed amount of energy to-or-from their input gas" it's now much less precise in getting target temperature. Even more: it can oscillate around target temperature, never stopping.

This is table with temperature difference (counterproductive) and heat transfer rate:
tdiff, K heat transfer, W
9.6 10370
35.0 6120
53 5488
65 3681
73 2567
86 1229
93.3 747
100.4 521
112.2 350
120.2 238
130.3 114
133 87
136 60
140 32
141 26
142 21
143 16
144 12
145 8
146 5.5

[Zefnoly]

Will it support liquid pipes finally now?!?

[z18pla]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2853417594

[Whack it and hope]

ok done some testing on europa and venus. Same set ups on each. Still no idea how to get them to change the temperature at all.

Set 1 : volume pumps in and out all pipes separate, output pumps to a tank. connections are all 1 pipe length then the pump. Input then has 4 pipes to 2 passive vents.
No matter what I set the pumps to. There is no change in temperature at all. not ever a small variance, heating and cooling.

set 2 : as before put with pressure regs instead of pumps. Still no change in temperatures heating or cooling.

set 3 : pressure regulator in, volume pump out, waste to passive vent only. No change in temperature.

set 4 : all connections to a single pipe length and then input and waste to passive vent, output to tank. No change in temperature at all.

So I am out of ideas as to how to make these new things work. I don't have hot gas to pump in on europa without pulling down half the base. Which I don't really want to do.

[Grisen Din]

Yea, my vulcan air conditioner is now broken, since apparently i cannot use my waste pipe at 126 C to insert more heat into that after the new update. And normal wall coolers are (and were useless) on vulcan/venus previously since they don't work at all if the waste pipe is hotter than the room.

The only option i have left is to use the poor portable air conditioner but that cannot be automated.

[DrLamp]

Originally posted by Whack it and hope:

ok done some testing on europa and venus. Same set ups on each. Still no idea how to get them to change the temperature at all.

Set 1 : volume pumps in and out all pipes separate, output pumps to a tank. connections are all 1 pipe length then the pump. Input then has 4 pipes to 2 passive vents.
No matter what I set the pumps to. There is no change in temperature at all. not ever a small variance, heating and cooling.

set 2 : as before put with pressure regs instead of pumps. Still no change in temperatures heating or cooling.

set 3 : pressure regulator in, volume pump out, waste to passive vent only. No change in temperature.

set 4 : all connections to a single pipe length and then input and waste to passive vent, output to tank. No change in temperature at all.

So I am out of ideas as to how to make these new things work. I don't have hot gas to pump in on europa without pulling down half the base. Which I don't really want to do.

The A/C no longer puts gas in the waste line if its empty, it just transfers heat TO that gas. You cant use the old trick of attaching a volume pump to the waste line anymore. There MUST be gas in there. No gas, no where for heat to go.

[Zefnoly]

Why can't they just do this...
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2553527102

[GuyMonkey]

The new AC don't transfer mols from input to output if the input temperature is about the same as the desired temperature.
And AC needs at least 111kp in the input for better results.

And you can "automate" the portable AC with wireless batteries and a connector, but only for a certain time as the wireless batteries are charging slower than the portable AC is using it.

[Teirdalin]

Here is a masterfully sketched blueprint of my AC setup on Venus that is now what I'm using to keep my bases oxygen and carbon dioxide levels cool.

https://i.imgur.com/xnIzTKz.jpg

1) I fill both tanks to their capacity being fed by a filter and passive vent, and then I close the valve so that they are two separate networks of similar heat.

2) I then turn on the ACs until it reaches a point of being unacceptably slow. Then I turn on the turbo pump to empty tank 2s network.

3) After the network is empty I turn off the pump and open the valve dividing the pressure between the tanks again.

4) I close the valve and repeat steps 2-4 until within an acceptable range to bring into the base where I then manage it via portable ACs when necessary.



The reasons for the active vents on tank 2 is because sometimes the ambient temperature outside can be better than whats in the tank at the time; for example if I filled it during the morning instead of night. Since I do not care about the contents of tank 2 it's acceptable to just use vents instead of a filter for it.

[Squingus]

Originally posted by Teirdalin:

So basically, now you need a gas in the waste. It doesn't just take gas out of the air and toss it into waste, but rather takes heat out of the air and tosses it onto whatever gas is in the waste. So you'll need to chain cooling air.

For example, air condition with a tank and a loop from the input and output with the waste being a vent, then another air conditioner with the waste being attached to that one.

The first will cool to however cold it can get from the atmosphere, and then the next will cool to however cold it can get from that conditioners low point.


Spent a few hours trying to figure out the new air conditioning out with some tips from a nice guy on the discord till I finally have my Venus station working again.


---------
Fortunately we have an IC slot now, cools HUGE amounts of gas at once and also it takes way less energy, so that's nice.

so we need a medium now to exchange the heat into the WASTE?

[GuyMonkey]

On Discord the user xarses just summed it up:
«
its about efficiency to be effective now, not about giving it more power to work. There are three ratios:
* how much pressure the input/waste (whichever is lower) is under 112 kPa
* how much the waste temp is out of ideal range
* how much the waste temp is delta to the input temp

From there there are some changes to be aware of:
* output stops if the input is at the target temprature
* output will continue even if the waste is empty
* it won't fill the waste pipe from the input anymore if your not at pressure
* The energy usages is a flat ~ 350w
* The ideal energy transfer is ~ 14 kJ
»

Numbers from patch log:
Efficency is lost if:
- you want to cool and waste temp is higher than input temp (and vice versa)
- you want to cool and waste temp is 100° higher than input temp -> only ~ 5% speed
- input temperature at 400°C ~ 33% efficency
- input temperature at 600°C ~ 10% efficency
- input temperature at 1000°C ~ 0% efficency

Efficency is gained if:
- you want to cool and waste temp is far colder than input temp
- input gas temp between -50°C and 100°C