general question : mol as measure for gas volumes

[Guardian50]

well technically it is correct, but it is not so common to work with, even in your daily life. with electric measurements, we work passively and actively all the time, even in the slightest moment, when we put a light bulb into its socket. we read the watt, we know what power we have at our power socket, but thats it. mol is hard to handle.

1 mol at (273,15 K, 101325 Pa) has the volume/mass of 22,414 liters. so how much mol do fit into a gas storage tank. you have to consider the temperature and the preassure. hell yeah, the game is not easy and it is challenging, but using this measuring unit. hardcore.

so what you think about this?

[Skinflowers]

Hadn't thought about it tbh.

Although 1 mol of diatomic hydrogen at STP should only be 22.4 litres. Not 22,000 litres.

Or is the comma between 22 and 414 a typo and are you referring to elemental hydrogen or hydrogen at STP?

Am confused! :)

Edit: added diatomic and halved it for clarity.
Edit 2: My derp, it is 22.4 litres. Got mixed up between monatomic and diatomic hydrogen!

[Guardian50]

yeah, the comma or dot, comes from the differences of regions ;) its 22 komma 414 liters

[Skinflowers]

Originally posted by guardianVienna:

yeah, the comma or dot, comes from the differences of regions ;) its 22 komma 414 liters

Ahhh gotcha! :) Had me thrown there!

[Skinflowers]

Now to actually answer your question.....

My first thought would be to plug the numbers into the Ideal gas equation.

PV=nRT

n=no of moles
R=universal gas constant=8.314J K−1 mol−1

In short; very awkward! :)

On further consideration, it does make sense because telling you how many moles there is does tell you exactly how much reactant there is.

1mol H2 + 0.5 mol O2 + spark = *pop* + H2O.

[Guardian50]

yes that is correct, but the question is, does the temperature effect this. why i raised this question is, that we have in the game a hugh mix ups of measuring data, yes the physically are correct, but beside that, it makes the game. from my point of view, even harder and lesser accessible for a lot of players. the goal of the game is, that you plan and construct for example your own base, with recycling, hydroponics etc. so you have to deal with gas mixures, power cuppling etc.

as for your example, 1 mol H2 + 0.5 mol O2 + spark = *pop* + H20 , so far so good, but when you have a gas mixer, which allows you only settings in "%" percent, this gets really ugly. the point is, at some point we are sitting before the calculator and starting to set up things, instead playing the game.

not that i like it the way it is at the moment, but still at some point, you know ;)

for example, i was happy, when i finally managed my first logic set, reader, writer etc. just to construct an emergency venting system for the furnace. hell this took me some time, till it was finally working as i intend it to be. the moment was great. now in front of me is the gas system. filtration is one thingy, but mixing it up again, in some working condition gives me at the moment some headache.

[Zeff]

wow I've never encountered a situation that requires any kind of complex math to solve problems involving temperature and pressures and mols in this game yet.

But what unit do you suggest to describe the quantity of a gas? In the real world people use pressures to tell if their tanks are empty or not but they don't really worry too much about details

In this game our gases can be exposed to pressure extremes, you could poorly place a tank with -60C gas in a place that you then heat to 200C whereas on earth, you're not likely to do that

Are you perhaps over complicating some problem you're looking at in game?

What unit do you suggest to measure gas quantity?

[Skinflowers]

Forgive me, I tend to get carried away in the thinking so much I actually forget what i'm actually supposed to be thinking about. :)

Right, accessibility.........

You're right. A mol is accurate but opaque unless you unleash some google-fu to learn what a mole actually is. Personally, i quite like the mole as it tells me how much of the "stuff" there is to work with. That said, that value is of little practical use when you're just wanting to set things up so your pipes aren't going to explode.

This begs the question, does the gas mixture gizmo mix gases based on pressures or (mol)arity? I'll have to look though i'm inclined to think (mol)arity. I'll need to go look at some point as this consideration is now officially bugging me. :)

Edit: Yes, it mixes molar values.

[Skinflowers]

As a working conclusion, i'd stick to moles if I want to know how much of a given substance I have to work with. Pressure and temperature or more important when considering tolerances with respect to equipment and reaction criteria whan it comes to smelting, for example.

If memory serves, gases are measured by volume (m3) but volumes aren't obviously apparent. It's calcuable but then you're left with the accessibility issues and having to do out of game scribblings. Do things like storage tanks have their volumes listed in the stats?

I'm now finally understanding why you posed the question! lol

[Guardian50]

Wow now you hit me ;)

First thank you for testing this out, that the mixer works/thinks in mols.
Second, yes you are right if we can work with mols it is ok, the only thing that remains, is that you are only able to understand what a mol is, either your are a chemist, still remember it from school or google.fu for the win.

[Guardian50]

According to the unofficial wiki, now we can say 72000 mol are possible, only if the temperature is about 20° C and when the preasure is above 300 atmospheres or 2,96077 Kpa. Any change of any value could result in a big bang. Challenging will be now to keep for example the temperature at this level. what happens, when the temperature drops? nothing, the volume inside the tank becomes smaller. so when the temperature rises just a little bit - boom. this is just a theoretical thought. But still make it interesting and challenging.

[onebit]

Wait... burning fuel makes water?

[Billiarious]

Originally posted by rotiking(warg):

Wait... burning fuel makes water?

it should, but it does not currently as far as i know.

[Skinflowers]

Originally posted by Billiarious:

Originally posted by rotiking(warg):

Wait... burning fuel makes water?

it should, but it does not currently as far as i know.

Yep, spark some hydrogen in oxygen and the results are energy and water. I don't know if the ommison of the emmison (8p) is an oversight, to keep it simple or for balancing purposes but i'd be curious to know.

[LeGel]

The mol system is a pain to think about but in game mostly didn't have any problems, because it doesn't reflect directly on any logic or IC circuit. In game gas does increase or decrease in pressure over temp change, as long as player know the pressure break point of items and how the heat exchange system works mol won't have any affect at all

[THE kilroy]

Mol is better to understand flow. If your mols are going down you are leaking or using it, but if pressire is falling, you might just be cooling. So mol is more usful to display, which is why it exists actually