Suggestion: Thermoeletric generators for basic power generator

[jminerkey]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_generator

These convert a temperature difference across the generator into electricity, no moving parts required.
They could be used to get electric energy out of a furnace's output gasses, or coolant heated by an atomic pile.
Steam engines, turbines and Stirling engines can do the same, but those require lots of water(or some other working fluid) and/or fiddly moving parts. A TE generator just needs one end heated, and one cooled.

Form factor would be like a heat exchanger with a power jack.

[socramazibi]

Originally posted by jminerkey:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_generator

These convert a temperature difference across the generator into electricity, no moving parts required.
They could be used to get electric energy out of a furnace's output gasses, or coolant heated by an atomic pile.
Steam engines, turbines and Stirling engines can do the same, but those require lots of water(or some other working fluid) and/or fiddly moving parts. A TE generator just needs one end heated, and one cooled.

Form factor would be like a heat exchanger with a power jack.

In the game is the RTG which is similar to what you say..

http://steamcommunity.com/app/544550/discussions/0/1291817208486133210/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator

[Dinoabunai]

There is a generator in game that works on gas burning and transfer heat into energy.

[jminerkey]

Originally posted by socramazibi:

In the game is the RTG which is similar to what you say..

http://steamcommunity.com/app/544550/discussions/0/1291817208486133210/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator

Well...yes, that does use TE generators, but that's a self-contained generator that outputs a fixed amount of power. Not the same thing.

Separate TE generators could extract what would otherwise be wasted heat from furnaces-or use a furnace solely as a powerplant.

Originally posted by Dinoabunai:

There is a generator in game that works on gas burning and transfer heat into energy.

This is more of a temporary solution to power problems, though. TE generators would allow more permanent powerplants, being able to pipe fuel in and emissions out instead of messing around with manually transferred fuel canisters.

[Rocket]

A good idea. I'm going to look into this!

[Hate Bear]

Well, radioisotope thermoelectric generators are not merely thermoelectric, as is being discussed, but rather their great long-term usefulness stems from the fact that it is a decaying radioisotope, so, in other words, it's radioactive. NASA has used these on probes with great success, and, not unlike the nuclear waste batteries that were made not too long ago with carbon and a bit of old radioactives (the diamond carbon shell catches a particular type of emisssion perfectly and makes it safe to handle), they have insanely long half-lives.

Because the energy gained from these kinds of batteries (the diamond one gives a tiny amount of direct electricity--the RTG tends to be more bulky to include a mechanism to convert the heat into energy) is directly correlated to the energy coming off the isotopes, they can have insane half-lives. I heard the diamond battery has a freaking FIVE THOUSAND YEAR half-life. This means you will still get 50% power 5000 years later. That is amazing. The downside is they don't provide much.

RTGs are very similar in principle and incredibly long-lasting also, as a direct result of long decay times. Decay times will vary depending on the exact materials used, both the base element type and what isotope (AKA how loaded with extra neutrons the nuclei of the atoms are, or how "radioactive") they are.

They are pretty awesome, but great care needs to be maintained in the handling of such materials. The reason nuclear (and that's why it's called nuclear--because the neutron radiation comes from the nucleus of atoms). The problem you run into when you get irradiated yourself is that these neutrons fly into you and stick instead of passing through. Most radiation really likes to stick to Hydrogen, you see, and our bodies are mostly water containing this exact element. Hydrogen is an amazing shielding material for this reason.

Biological anything tends to get really messed up when the molecules in your cells get disrupted and changed into something else that doesn't really function properly. Lethal doses of fissionable radiation tend to do things to people like make your skin turn black and fall off after a few days, which sucks, but might be cool to include radiation in the game. It is a major component of dealing with space and other worlds in general.

A lot of people that play this game and like it are probably huge turbonerds. I highly recommend reading on physics in general, including but not limited to nuclear. It is neat to be able to know how things like that actually work. A great realistic depiction of a larger RTG is in "The Martian." Anyone unfamiliar can see what it is and what it does there. It's also a good watch.

[RainmakerLTU]

I guess we have in mind a large thermoelectric generator based on Peltier elements.

From other hand RTG would be handy as well.

[Hate Bear]

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[Qybat]

I think the devs need to give some long-term planning to how power production should work before they go about adding things in. I personally like the idea of power generation as a two-part process: A heat source, and a TEG generator. Only one TEG item is needed, but there may be many ways to get the heat. I'd envision a typical base as starting out with only a few solar panels for power, but later game expansion involving a lot of very power-hungry equipment forcing players to either build a huge number of panels, or manage power conservation with great care, or construct a more advanced power plant like a nuclear reactor which uses the two-step heat-to-TEG process.

Advanced players might even be able to use TEGs as part of their base cooling system, allowing them to recapture some of the waste heat energy from their machines in order to reduce their power need.

I think that RTGs should not be a viable power source for running an entire base - they should be hard to manufacture and provide little power (Maybe half that of a solar panel, as they operate continually), making them suitable as a means for powering remote outposts, or as a high-reliability power supply for lighting and doors.

If TEGs are implimented, the design is obvious enough: A machine with two pipe ports, that are not connected internally. Heat moved from the hotter tot he cooler side at a rate proportional to the temperature difference between them, and electricity is made available at a rate limited by Carnot's theorem. If you use his equation then, rather conveniently, you can be sure you won't run into a situation where a player might design a perpetual motion machine. The TEG should be able to generate far more power than solar panels, at the expense of needing a high temperature difference provided by shoveling volatiles and oxygen into a furnace, or building and regulating a nuclear reactor.

It would be up to the players if they wish to build huge fields of solar panels, or a single power plant of a higher tier and complexity.

Some of the end-game items, the things which veer further from reality and into sci-fi realms, may even be characterised by an extreme level of power use such that it would require a substantial energy production or storage facility to run them. We are a long way from considering such abstractions as force fields and teleporters, but I do like the idea of a distant future game where a random event warns of incoming debris and players have to panic-rush to shut down all nonessential systems and divert power to the anti-debris lasers while they cower in the safe room. Watching the gauges and hoping that the danger passes before the cooling system saturates and the generators shut down. That would make an exciting story - the sprawling complex of a base verses whatever the RNG may throw at it, and players scurrying around inside with wire-cutters and wrench in a struggle to heal the mechanical behemoth upon which they depend.

[delerium76]

Originally posted by Qybat:

I think the devs need to give some long-term planning to how power production should work before they go about adding things in. I personally like the idea of power generation as a two-part process: A heat source, and a TEG generator. Only one TEG item is needed, but there may be many ways to get the heat. I'd envision a typical base as starting out with only a few solar panels for power, but later game expansion involving a lot of very power-hungry equipment forcing players to either build a huge number of panels, or manage power conservation with great care, or construct a more advanced power plant like a nuclear reactor which uses the two-step heat-to-TEG process.

Advanced players might even be able to use TEGs as part of their base cooling system, allowing them to recapture some of the waste heat energy from their machines in order to reduce their power need.

I think that RTGs should not be a viable power source for running an entire base - they should be hard to manufacture and provide little power (Maybe half that of a solar panel, as they operate continually), making them suitable as a means for powering remote outposts, or as a high-reliability power supply for lighting and doors.

If TEGs are implimented, the design is obvious enough: A machine with two pipe ports, that are not connected internally. Heat moved from the hotter tot he cooler side at a rate proportional to the temperature difference between them, and electricity is made available at a rate limited by Carnot's theorem. If you use his equation then, rather conveniently, you can be sure you won't run into a situation where a player might design a perpetual motion machine. The TEG should be able to generate far more power than solar panels, at the expense of needing a high temperature difference provided by shoveling volatiles and oxygen into a furnace, or building and regulating a nuclear reactor.

It would be up to the players if they wish to build huge fields of solar panels, or a single power plant of a higher tier and complexity.

Some of the end-game items, the things which veer further from reality and into sci-fi realms, may even be characterised by an extreme level of power use such that it would require a substantial energy production or storage facility to run them. We are a long way from considering such abstractions as force fields and teleporters, but I do like the idea of a distant future game where a random event warns of incoming debris and players have to panic-rush to shut down all nonessential systems and divert power to the anti-debris lasers while they cower in the safe room. Watching the gauges and hoping that the danger passes before the cooling system saturates and the generators shut down. That would make an exciting story - the sprawling complex of a base verses whatever the RNG may throw at it, and players scurrying around inside with wire-cutters and wrench in a struggle to heal the mechanical behemoth upon which they depend.

Right now we have a gas generator. Igniting gas produces heat, but that heat doesn't produce any electricity by itself, so it's assumed that a gas generator also includes a method for turning that heat into electricity. Since a gas generator turns heat into electricity, to me that fits the definition of a TEG, and it's already in the game. Past that, how that gas generator accomplishes it's heat to electricity conversion isn't really explained, but it can be done several different ways, turbine being the most common (but I guess a peltier could also be used). That conversion is internal to the generator, and not really something you interact with in the game, so it's more of a lore based thing.

Now, you could introduce peltiers into the game that generate electricity through the transference of heat, but I honestly can't think of a practical use for them outside of what the gas generator already does.

[Qybat]

Don't think in terms of use. The most 'useful' power source would be a magic box that provides limitless energy - but that's not fun. A good power system needs to give good gameplay. I think that key to that is for power to scale in complexity and skill requirements as the game progresses. TEGs may provide that by the flexibility they offer, allowing players to adapt the design of each station as it grows according to resources, needs, and their own favorite designs and styles of play. Will they build a super-efficient generation plant using heat reclamation and carefully engineered logic control, or a brute force plant that makes up for simplistic design with sheer size? Will they focus on production alone, or storage? How will they handle emergency situations and redundency? There should not be a single right way to make power, as there is right now (add solars until the lights stay on), but rather simple components that interact together to achieve the aim according to the skills and styles of the players.

So that's how I'd envision it:
- Solars: Early game power source, but a large base would consume far more power than is practical with solars alone.
- RTGs: Expensive to make and a trickle of power, but their compact size and zero-maintainance gives them an important niche for powering critical systems.
- Gas generator engine: A tool for generating massive but short-lived amounts of power without needing to construct a full-scale TEG plant.
- TEG: The 'big generator' for centralised power production, once the base outgrows solar. Requires heating a pipe, and players should be offered several ways to achieve this (Fission reactor, fusion reactor, heat reclamation from base cooling or furnace waste gasses, solar concentrators, whatever)

This provides a continuous progression during base construction - as more rooms are added and power demands go up, players will have to upgrade their power production accordingly, starting with a few solar panels and ending with a whole building or large room dedicated to power, but with enough adaptability that no two stations will turn out quite the same. It also gives the scope for things to go horribly wrong in the way we all love, and which may be important to future game modes. It means players will constantly be faced with choices of how to proceed, rather than simply knowing that 'add more generators' is the solution.

[Update]

I still dream of the day we get something along the lines of SS13s singularity engine or to an even greater extreme, Supermatter

Of course with a stationeers theme of course, ie rather than the Singularity engines radiation collectors just purely making electricity they can produce heat which you could them pump into a Thermal electic generator

I know the developers want a more realistic theme to its systems but SINGULOOSE is fun and even if an equivalent made it into the game I don't expect it to be as fatal as in ss13, it would be fine to have it dissipate.
Delamination is also very very fun but maybe someday, it would be a stretch and not something to even reasonably expect for quite a long time until Stationeers is in more of a complete state.

I'd rather see more important features like polishing and adding new toys to round out the existing systems, the prospect of away missions and using our ships to move around playfields (How empyrion handles travel is probably a realistic implementation) as well as NPCs/AI

Very good job by far though, I think the devs have a very good philosophy towards their development

[Qybat]

If you want an SS13 comparison, there are some stations on /tg/ and Paradise which work much as the TEG proposal discussed here. A furnace heats one pipe, a radiator in space cools another, and connecting them is the TEG that generates power. SS13's sillier feel isn't what Stationeers is aiming for, but it does capture the important gameplay elements - that a good game power supply should be something that needs a bit of thought and design, not just slapping a few components down. That it should be something that needs a bit of management. And that it should be something which can go horrifically wrong if the player's skill or forethought are lacking.

Realistic-ish power station equipment is still capable of going wrong in fun ways. Picture a scenario where someone fiddles with the fission core and pulls out the control rods too far, causing overheating and overpressure which leads to rupture of the hot line, which starts venting 2000-degree death into the station interior. No exotic physics involved. Or the many issues we've all met already where improperly planned upgrades burn out a critical power cable, trapping the crew inside with all airlocks nonfunctional and forcing them to improvise their way around to run a bypass, or jerry-rig emergency power using their own tool batteries to run APCs.

[Hate Bear]

@Qybat
Always have emergency power, for sure. That's a solid multi-engineering game rule.

[Zenthar]

So you want the TEG engines from SS13 right? The ones that people always try to go over kill on and end up melting half the station when containment gets breached.

[Qybat]

Not quite - it would be more accurate to say that both SS13 and our discussions here are drawing from the same real-world engineering inspiration, as TEGs represent a convenient simplification of the process by which real power stations operate. Just enough complexity to be ideal for use in a game, but without the excessive complexity that would come of having separate boiler-turbine-generator-condensor-pump systems. It's not surprising that we come up with something similar to SS13 when we are both trying to solve the same problem - that of designing a power source model which provides enjoyable gameplay.

Also remember that things on SS13 are actually designed to go wrong. That's part of what makes it such fun. The pre-built stations are all deliberately engineered to be one act of sabotage away from immolation.