Compare fictional Alicorn with real-life submarines

[Naruto 607]

I found interesting fact about this fictional submarine in Ace Combat 7 called Alicorn (in DLC missions), which is a supercarrier that acts as an aircraft carrier, a battleship, and a submarine. On the Mission 3 briefing, there's an information saying that its maximum operating (test?) depth is 600m (nearly 2000 feet).

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1922765607

I've compared that with Alfa-class (1100 feet) and Borei-class (1400+ feet was planned), but as I remembered about this game, a mod "Playable Subs" or whatever that was made by CaptainX3 (I forgot the name, but correct me if I'm wrong) has an Alfa II-class that its max test depth is 2000 feet.

Is there any submarines IRL that has maximum operating depth at 600m or more? I'm curious about this.

[Testament]

The russian AS-31 is rumoured to be able to dive to about 1.000m. But I don't know whether that counts. As far as I know there isn't a single active mainstream military submarine that has a test depth of 600m.

Granted some will be able to sustain it since test depth is not maximum depth.

[rokvam]

This type of information is classified, so you won't get any confirmed valid answers to this question.

- Dolphin 38

[Naruto 607]

Thanks for the honest responses.

I always wondered how deep the submarines are before it can implode at 100% hull integrity, especially after having fun around with Alfa II from Playable Subs mod when I play and mod this game.

God, I miss Cold Waters, after Ace Combat 7 released DLCs 4, 5, and 6 that was focused on a submarine hunter mission, about sonobuoys, ASROCs and all...

It's really out of curiosity how the submarines look like, especially after lessons learned from CW.

[rokvam]

Originally posted by Naruto 607:

Thanks for the honest responses.

I always wondered how deep the submarines are before it can implode at 100% hull integrity, especially after having fun around with Alfa II from Playable Subs mod when I play and mod this game.

God, I miss Cold Waters, after Ace Combat 7 released DLCs 4, 5, and 6 that was focused on a submarine hunter mission, about sonobuoys, ASROCs and all...

It's really out of curiosity how the submarines look like, especially after lessons learned from CW.

I understand your quriosity... When it comes to diving depths of submarines, think of the steel wires used for lifting heavy stuff. They are often marked with the max weight they are certified for. (Max 12 tonnes etc.) The wire will not break on 12 tonnes though, they always faktor in a safety margin. This is calculated based on things like the wire metal composition, the wire thikness, length and so on. The same applies for submarine hulls. It's all math when it comes down to it...

On another note... You mention a submarine aircraft carrier...

The whole consept of using submarines for other purposes than sea denial and ballistic missile patrols was looked into in the late fifties and early sixties by both the east and the west.

Carrier submarines was looked into but in the end I think it just became to complex and to expensive when guaged against the potential benefits gained...

- Dolphin 38

[Naruto 607]

Originally posted by rokvam:

Originally posted by Naruto 607:

Thanks for the honest responses.

I always wondered how deep the submarines are before it can implode at 100% hull integrity, especially after having fun around with Alfa II from Playable Subs mod when I play and mod this game.

God, I miss Cold Waters, after Ace Combat 7 released DLCs 4, 5, and 6 that was focused on a submarine hunter mission, about sonobuoys, ASROCs and all...

It's really out of curiosity how the submarines look like, especially after lessons learned from CW.

I understand your quriosity... When it comes to diving depths of submarines, think of the steel wires used for lifting heavy stuff. They are often marked with the max weight they are certified for. (Max 12 tonnes etc.) The wire will not break on 12 tonnes though, they always faktor in a safety margin. This is calculated based on things like the wire metal composition, the wire thikness, length and so on. The same applies for submarine hulls. It's all math when it comes down to it...

On another note... You mention a submarine aircraft carrier...

The whole consept of using submarines for other purposes than sea denial and ballistic missile patrols was looked into in the late fifties and early sixties by both the east and the west.

Carrier submarines was looked into but in the end I think it just became to complex and to expensive when guaged against the potential benefits gained...

- Dolphin 38

Ik what you're thinking. So the submersible carriers exist back then but never exist IRL. That's why submarines we know only play role as a hunter killer for ships and other submarines, and some others have ability to launch ballistic or cruise missiles. It's my first time to hear someone did planned about this, but never realized and became a fiction in games.

Too bad that we can't expect to have somewhat like underwater Admiral Kuznetsov that can launch anti-ship cruise missiles and fighter jets, but also can dive into the water like a submarine. CW is really a good submarine-themed game, BTW, but considering limitations it has regarding modding capability, we can't add models, but we can do data manipulation like model offset, placement, number of torpedoes a sub can carry, etc., as well as mission modeling (editor).

Anyway, it's not really a waste of time asking this; I haven't yet compare fictional Alicorn with Seawolf-class or Virginia-class in Playable Subs mod, but I believe some info is out there; I'll go run into a check and make comparison between Alicorn and real-life submarine classes, both from Internet resources and the game (CW with Playable Subs mod and AC7 DLCs 4, 5, and 6).

However, does Alfa II in Playable Subs mod really has a test depth of 2000 feet? It's a "theoretical design" but if it's true, this small Russian/Soviet sub will be as deep as the Alicorn in Ace Combat 7.

Also...

Originally posted by NeuesTestament:

The russian AS-31 is rumoured to be able to dive to about 1.000m. But I don't know whether that counts. As far as I know there isn't a single active mainstream military submarine that has a test depth of 600m.

Granted some will be able to sustain it since test depth is not maximum depth.

How to differentiate maximum depth with test depth?

In CW submarines can go as deep as 140% to 160% from test depth before imploded at 100% hull integrity, whereas hull integrity below 50% will limit its depth to only 40% to 60% from test depth before it can implode.

Han-class, for example, can go as deep as 1000 or 1100 feet or so before it can implode on 100% hull integrity.

[Antti-san]

The Japanese actually fielded an aircraft carrier sub during WW2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-400-class_submarine

Here's a nice article about a concept Cold War aircraft carrier sub: http://www.hisutton.com/USN_AN-1_Submarine_Aircraft_Carrier.html

I guess the big vulnerability is the sub having to surface to launch it's planes. And then retrieving them later on.

[Naruto 607]

Originally posted by Antti-san:

The Japanese actually fielded an aircraft carrier sub during WW2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-400-class_submarine

Here's a nice article about a concept Cold War aircraft carrier sub: http://www.hisutton.com/USN_AN-1_Submarine_Aircraft_Carrier.html

I guess the big vulnerability is the sub having to surface to launch it's planes. And then retrieving them later on.

I'll take a look at it soon.

And what you said about it is right; unless the submarine has adequate anti-air/anti-ship weapons to counterattack, they're vulnerable when surfaced.

I've heard features in game that didn't exist in CW forums here, such as no AA weapons to take down annoying planes and helicopters carrying sonobuoys, torpedoes, and/or ASROCs; guess it will never be realized by Killerfish Games until then. And most submarines carry limited weapons too; no weapons to be fired means bad luck.

[Twelvefield]

The offensive capability of any submarine lies in stealth, so anything that takes away from that reduces the capability of the sub as a weapon. A ship is a sword, a submarine is the knife you don't see in the other hand. NATO doctrine emphasizes (or at least it did until year 2000) superior sensors and quiet transit, whereas PACT emphasizes speed and durability. Any sub will try to maximize any or all of those attributes, which leaves very little room for much else.

While a missile sub has the rough dimensions of a WWII aircraft carrier, its equipment and loadout prevent it from doing more than its primary purpose, to be a stand-off strategic weapon. There were a number of subs produced by Japan, France, Italy, and Germany that sought to launch their own aircraft, and the Americans did study the idea some. Primarily, the aircraft would be used for reconnaissance, as there would not likely be enough room or power for the aircraft to be a fighter or to carry bombs and missiles. Typically, the space reserved for the aircraft took away from a submarine's transit capabilities: such a sub would make for an easy target and would be expensive to replace.

Today, the rôle of a submarine-launched aircraft is played by the cruise missile. Generally, a submarine does not need its own air recon, but it could certainly be possible for subs to launch UAVs for recon, offense, and defense. If you can put a MANPAD on the deck of a sub, you could certainly operate UAVs. Armed UAVs can carry air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles that could really make things exciting for an unsuspecting enemy.

[tomasz.magierowski]

K-278 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_K-278_Komsomolets
got down to 1,020 meters (3,350 feet) and it was combat capable though the only ship of it's class.

[rokvam]

Originally posted by tomasz.magierowski:

K-278 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_K-278_Komsomolets
got down to 1,020 meters (3,350 feet) and it was combat capable though the only ship of it's class.

That's what they said about the class, but we will never get the exact diving depth on her... Unless you work in the Russian Submarine Service... And if you did, you would not post the information on this forum

Anyway, the Mike Class, as we called it in NATO, was a class only one ship deep, and it sank back in 1989 around Bear Island...

When the west first heard about the Alpha back in the days, the initial reports boasted the diving depth of the class to be 700 meters (operational). After the cold war ended, they found out it was more in the vicinity of 400 meters... So you can't trust the sources putting the numbers out there.

- Dolphin 38

[Naruto 607]

Originally posted by rokvam:

Originally posted by tomasz.magierowski:

K-278 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_K-278_Komsomolets
got down to 1,020 meters (3,350 feet) and it was combat capable though the only ship of it's class.

That's what they said about the class, but we will never get the exact diving depth on her... Unless you work in the Russian Submarine Service... And if you did, you would not post the information on this forum

Anyway, the Mike Class, as we called it in NATO, was a class only one ship deep, and it sank back in 1989 around Bear Island...

When the west first heard about the Alpha back in the days, the initial reports boasted the diving depth of the class to be 700 meters (operational). After the cold war ended, they found out it was more in the vicinity of 400 meters... So you can't trust the sources putting the numbers out there.

- Dolphin 38

Oh yeah, there's one in the Playable Subs mod. How come I was so forgetful?

Thank goodness I have time to check it out ingame.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1931612555

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1931612684

I'll go check any subs from that Playable Subs mod to see ones that can dive deeper than Alicorn.

[Naruto 607]

Okay, here are some subs with test depths almost on par with fictional Alicorn. I've hand-picked it up from Playable Subs mod by CaptainX3 beside Mike-class you have mentioned.

Also, is maximum operational depth is different than test depth? I need an answer on this, though; game from those DLCs gave me enough information I need without going to Acepedia or something like that, but since in DLC 6 of Ace Combat 7 in the briefing, it says "maximum operating depth", not "test depth".

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1931620402

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1931620587

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1931620787

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1931620941

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1931621804

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1931621122

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1931621375

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1931621576

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1931622100

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1931622302

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1931622505

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1931622711

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1931622895

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1931623078