Diesel subs.

[petejg5]

Will we get diesel subs at some point?

I guess it would be a different style of tactics used by the deep diving nuclear subs and it would mean hunting in the shallows would be the preferred option.

[toinkertoy]

I kind of hope they may go the route! But who knows.

[PKJ0330]

you can play diesel sub?? Maybe after the addition of other country submarines. US navy only nuclear submarine.....

[kenberg]

Originally posted by car2818:

you can play diesel sub?? Maybe after the addition of other country submarines. US navy only nuclear submarine.....

It is hard to see America diesel-electric submarines as by 1968 there 3ed line training and reserve units and as much as id love to see a guppy class and a tang class its more likey were see the kobben class and oberon class.

But i still like to see playable diesel-electric submarines with snorkels and battery time in Cold Water.

[toinkertoy]

Yeah I dunno much about the guppy subs but I thought they were conversions from old WW2 subs. The Oberon-class however seems to have been quite advanced for its time (despite being D/E) with much detail paid to quieting techniques! It sounds like it was quite a formidable sub in the early Cold War! I would be very excited to play that boat!

[Justicier10-7]

I know the Barbels had a brief stint in the Vietnam conflict... if I remember correctly, one of the boats in the class had a "whoopsie" while attempting to identify cargo, which resulted in ramming and sinking a North Vietnamese freighter.

The Barbel was a darn impressive boat, especially for its time. I'd love to see it as an option for the '68 campaign... with proper diesel/electric mechanics as well of course

[Irving Mainway]

Originally posted by Justicier:

I know the Barbels had a brief stint in the Vietnam conflict... if I remember correctly, one of the boats in the class had a "whoopsie" while attempting to identify cargo, which resulted in ramming and sinking a North Vietnamese freighter.

The Barbel was a darn impressive boat, especially for its time. I'd love to see it as an option for the '68 campaign... with proper diesel/electric mechanics as well of course

Yeah, they were also the basis for the later post-war Dutch and Japanese submarine development as well as being considered more or less a 'fall-back' option for mass-production over nuclear boats had the need arisen. Aside from the the battery, the Barbels were also limited by their oxygen supply, as best I know both them and the Skipjack class (as well as all earlier boats) were still reliant upon air tanks and ventillation to keep the air fresh.

I think calculating dynamic fuel / power consuption would add an interesting aspect to the game although you have to wonder how well suited Diesel boats would be to the given game mechanics (especially how time moves or doesn't). If we're talking about faithful representation of the snorkeling cycle speed on the world map will be greatly restricted and torpedo evasion will become an impossibility, not everyone's cup of tea.

[PKJ0330]

Originally posted by kenberg:

Originally posted by car2818:

you can play diesel sub?? Maybe after the addition of other country submarines. US navy only nuclear submarine.....

It is hard to see America diesel-electric submarines as by 1968 there 3ed line training and reserve units and as much as id love to see a guppy class and a tang class its more likey were see the kobben class and oberon class.

But i still like to see playable diesel-electric submarines with snorkels and battery time in Cold Water.

I know the US Navy had a diesel submarine before. What I was to say that I want the latest diesel submarines like the U212A.
US Navy's diesel sub is very old.

[btine83]

Barbel-class submarine 1959-1990. Last U.S diesel attack subs. Not that old

[rokvam]

Originally posted by Irving Mainway:

Originally posted by Justicier:

I know the Barbels had a brief stint in the Vietnam conflict... if I remember correctly, one of the boats in the class had a "whoopsie" while attempting to identify cargo, which resulted in ramming and sinking a North Vietnamese freighter.

The Barbel was a darn impressive boat, especially for its time. I'd love to see it as an option for the '68 campaign... with proper diesel/electric mechanics as well of course

Yeah, they were also the basis for the later post-war Dutch and Japanese submarine development as well as being considered more or less a 'fall-back' option for mass-production over nuclear boats had the need arisen. Aside from the the battery, the Barbels were also limited by their oxygen supply, as best I know both them and the Skipjack class (as well as all earlier boats) were still reliant upon air tanks and ventillation to keep the air fresh.

I think calculating dynamic fuel / power consuption would add an interesting aspect to the game although you have to wonder how well suited Diesel boats would be to the given game mechanics (especially how time moves or doesn't). If we're talking about faithful representation of the snorkeling cycle speed on the world map will be greatly restricted and torpedo evasion will become an impossibility, not everyone's cup of tea.

The newest breed of diesel/eletrics have capabilities of evasion speeds, and can maintain that speed for quite a while, so torpeo evasion would be quite feesable.

Would dieselboats be used like the nuclear boats in the CW scenario? Doubtful, as transit time would be long... But for landing SpeOps units behind enemy lines, you would be hard pressed to find a more suitable type of boat.

The interesting aspect for me would be how you would implement snorkeling into the transit on world map. Would it be with high speed, followed by low speed during snorceling?

Also it would be cool to have to watch your powerlevels during combat, but I just don't know how much work would be needed to implement this in game...

- Dolphin 38

[Justicier10-7]

Originally posted by Irving Mainway:

Yeah, they were also the basis for the later post-war Dutch and Japanese submarine development as well as being considered more or less a 'fall-back' option for mass-production over nuclear boats had the need arisen. Aside from the the battery, the Barbels were also limited by their oxygen supply, as best I know both them and the Skipjack class (as well as all earlier boats) were still reliant upon air tanks and ventillation to keep the air fresh.

I think calculating dynamic fuel / power consuption would add an interesting aspect to the game although you have to wonder how well suited Diesel boats would be to the given game mechanics (especially how time moves or doesn't). If we're talking about faithful representation of the snorkeling cycle speed on the world map will be greatly restricted and torpedo evasion will become an impossibility, not everyone's cup of tea.

Absolutely, if KFG added a model for the Barbel, then modders would have a good baseline for the Dutch Zwaardvis and the Republic of China Hai Lung at the very least... the Japanese boats are also visually nearly identical, but they were longer if memory serves so the same model with a few extra widgets wouldn't quite work.

It's a bit of a shame that the USN didn't continue development of smaller, conventional subs as coastal defense boats to operate around mainland US and Hawaii. Having a fleet of conventional subs prowling the coast would be a cost-effective option, and one that would likely be a boon to the drug war. If for nothing else, the detection and tracking of inbound contraband shipments and relaying their position to USCG cutters.

As for evasion, I have been testing my SCS campaign with a Song-class and she evades just as well as a Sturgeon... I've (barely) managed evading 4 torpedos at once with her. Only difference is proper use of noisemakers and/or depth change is very important since you cannot knuckle.

However, she's a very new diesel... I have also tried a Romeo in my 2002 campaign. That's... different... I can evade one torpedo easily, but more than that and you'll have a "Dark Souls" level of challenge on your hands.

[r4y30n]

They just added some playable Chinese and Russian boats, they both have plenty of diesels that could be made playable. The question is what to do about batteries... Then again, the missions were designed to last around a half hour and most diesel boats are designed for 1-2 hours endurance at max speed so maybe it doesn't matter.

[toinkertoy]

Originally posted by r4y30n:

Then again, the missions were designed to last around a half hour and most diesel boats are designed for 1-2 hours endurance at max speed so maybe it doesn't matter.

Yeah for a single mission it probably doesn’t matter one bit. But in a campaign, where sometimes you encounter multiple groups in short succession, then target prioritization becomes an issue! You don’t wanna be wasting battery stores on random ASW groups only to have your mission objective come along 2 hours later and your batteries down to 15% power!

[petejg5]

Seeing as diesel subs may have a shorter mission duration maybe more ports could be available for example ports on the North Norwegian Coast. Also maybe it might open up more mission areas like the Baltic going all the way up to St Petersburg Russia so a resupply post in Sweden or Denmark would be handy. Plus it's shallower water so a betting hunting ground for the diesel subs.

[rokvam]

Originally posted by petejg5:

Seeing as diesel subs may have a shorter mission duration maybe more ports could be available for example ports on the North Norwegian Coast. Also maybe it might open up more mission areas like the Baltic going all the way up to St Petersburg Russia so a resupply post in Sweden or Denmark would be handy. Plus it's shallower water so a betting hunting ground for the diesel subs.

I can’t go into detail on the endurance time for the boats I served on, as this is still classified, but to those under the impression that diesel/eletric boats have to go to port all the time to refuel, and re-supply I can say that while the operational range is not unlimited, they can be out for quite a while...

In Norway we had a submarine base in Olavsvern, near Tromsø. It had numerous workshops, a huge storage facility and a dry dock that could fit the Ula Class, all safe inside a huge tunnel in the mountain.

It would be a perfect place to begin your patrol inside the bastion, or to begin your transit to operate in or around Soviet naval bases...

On a side note, sadly it is no longer used by the navy... Some high ranked genious convinced our politicians, money could be saved by selling the property to civillians. So they did, and a civilian entrpenour bought it for 38 million NOK I beleive, and the area is now beeing rented out to Russians... (Not a joke). Both the entrpenour and the Russians are laughing all the way to the bank.

Also the navy now have spent double of what they got for the property around Olavsvern on building up a new base of operations in the north.

But that was a digression...

In addition we have a base in Bergen. Further south, and a good place to fall back to, should Northern Norway fall.

Theese two could be added as bases in addition to Holy Loch in the 1984 and 1968 campaigns.

I like your idea to add more activity in the baltic sea as well... Operations in those shallow waters would sure be a challenge...

- Dolphin 38

[Antti-san]

Diesel subs probably should have their own sets of missions different from the nuke boats, so it doesn't become just a slower version of the standard campaign(s).