Knox-class instakills missiles?

[Swingfire]

I've been trying out the beta for the Soviet submarines and I gotta say my favorite mission is the convoy interception, it's insanely difficult and completely different from the USN version.

One thing I've noticed however is that the Knox seems to delete my missiles at extreme distances. This happens even from the front where the Knox has no CIWS coverage. I notice that every time the Knox fires its flares/smokescreen, missiles instantly explode. Am I just having an incredibly long streak of bad luck or is there something going on with the Knox's weapons?

[boris.glevrk]

I think the American CIWS are indeed too powerful, or rather, the soviet/PLAN anti-ship missiles are too weak.
Currently they can't hit even a single USN ship even with all missiles shot, and they can't sink a merchant in one shot as well.

[Justicier10-7]

I have noticed the Knox is crazy effective at downing incoming missiles... even outside of CIWS firing arc

Originally posted by boris.glevrk:

I think the American CIWS are indeed too powerful, or rather, the soviet/PLAN anti-ship missiles are too weak.
Currently they can't hit even a single USN ship even with all missiles shot, and they can't sink a merchant in one shot as well.

Well, the PLAN YJ-82 missile (Called in-game by its export designation of C-801) is basically the Chinese version of an Exocet or Harpoon, but has a smaller warhead than its contemporaries. I consider the Chinese missile to be a "Kneecapper" that slows merchants down enough to catch up to them and finish them with a torpedo.

The Soviet anti-ship missiles are another story... they're huge, and they have the largest warheads of any weapon in the game. The SS-N-7, by the default game configuration, has over double the power of an ADCAP torpedo. They're plenty powerful... IF they hit...

[delfigrey]

Are they simulating SAMs. That might be killing your missiles.

[boris.glevrk]

Originally posted by delfigrey:

Are they simulating SAMs. That might be killing your missiles.

SAMs can't hit anti-ship missiles, they can at most hit a ballistic missile.

[Citrophocles]

Originally posted by boris.glevrk:

Originally posted by delfigrey:

Are they simulating SAMs. That might be killing your missiles.

SAMs can't hit anti-ship missiles, they can at most hit a ballistic missile.

sams CAN hit anti ship missiles, whether that is modeled in game is another question, but the knox class does have RIM-7 sea sparrow launchers that are primarily used for stopping anti-ship missiles. they are much farther range than a CIWS and are very effective. it all depends on the type of SAM that determines its usage

[Antti-san]

Originally posted by Citrophocles:

sams CAN hit anti ship missiles, whether that is modeled in game is another question, but the knox class does have RIM-7 sea sparrow launchers that are primarily used for stopping anti-ship missiles. they are much farther range than a CIWS and are very effective. it all depends on the type of SAM that determines its usage

The ingame Knox has the later CIWS installed though, which replaced the Sea Sparrow launcher.

[gazzmilsom]

Is Cold Waters trying to model electronic ways of dealing with ASMs? Does chaff/jamming confuse the missile or can the game not do that so it just destroys a spoofed missile instead.

I don't think I've seen a missile in CW being spoofed off target to then acquire and hit a different ship. Something that has happened IRL.

[rokvam]

Originally posted by boris.glevrk:

Originally posted by delfigrey:

Are they simulating SAMs. That might be killing your missiles.

SAMs can't hit anti-ship missiles, they can at most hit a ballistic missile.

Ehh... I think you are wrong here... Seaborn SAM's like the RIM-174 (SM-6), can indeed be, and were designed to be employed against cruise missiles like the ones we use in game.

The ability to shoot down ballistic missiles however is a feat the US are still working hard on perfecting. They have had some succsessful tests inthis field to be sure, but hitting a ballistic missile in flight is not as "easy" as hitting a cruise missile

- Dolphin 48.

[rokvam]

Originally posted by gazzmilsom:

Is Cold Waters trying to model electronic ways of dealing with ASMs? Does chaff/jamming confuse the missile or can the game not do that so it just destroys a spoofed missile instead.

I don't think I've seen a missile in CW being spoofed off target to then acquire and hit a different ship. Something that has happened IRL.

I have had my missiles spoofed on numerous occasions, only to painfully see my missile hitting a trawler, unlucky enough to be near by.

I think this can happen when the "other" ship is very close to the ship spoofing the missile in the first place, so it is possible.

- Dolphin 48

[gazzmilsom]

Originally posted by rokvam:

Originally posted by gazzmilsom:

Is Cold Waters trying to model electronic ways of dealing with ASMs? Does chaff/jamming confuse the missile or can the game not do that so it just destroys a spoofed missile instead.

I don't think I've seen a missile in CW being spoofed off target to then acquire and hit a different ship. Something that has happened IRL.

I have had my missiles spoofed on numerous occasions, only to painfully see my missile hitting a trawler, unlucky enough to be near by.

I think this can happen when the "other" ship is very close to the ship spoofing the missile in the first place, so it is possible.

- Dolphin 48

So what's happening here could well be a bug then?

It's good to know missiles can be fooled properly. I rarely shoot missiles in CW. Lone merchants in the distance only. Shooting a missile brings all sorts of trouble down on top of you that sneaky torpedo attacks avoid.

I haven't tried shooting from the first convergence zone. Thats about as far as you can go passive sonar. Can you use the esm mast to position very long range shots?

Rokvam, are anti ship missiles really useful IRL for submarines? It seems that western nations have thrown everything behind very capable heavy weight torpedos. Maybe because they make so much more sense?

[rokvam]

Originally posted by gazzmilsom:

So what's happening here could well be a bug then?

It's good to know missiles can be fooled properly. I rarely shoot missiles in CW. Lone merchants in the distance only. Shooting a missile brings all sorts of trouble down on top of you that sneaky torpedo attacks avoid.

I haven't tried shooting from the first convergence zone. Thats about as far as you can go passive sonar. Can you use the esm mast to position very long range shots?

Rokvam, are anti ship missiles really useful IRL for submarines? It seems that western nations have thrown everything behind very capable heavy weight torpedos. Maybe because they make so much more sense?

About the bug... I just don't know...

I have experimented with missile shots since the game came out, but primarily against the amphibious groups. I developed a tactic in the 1984 campaign, where my intercept point of such groups would be outside of Andoya. Upon first contact I use a few minutes to accurately classify all contacts. I then creep up to 45 ft, pop my radar for 5 seconds to get a good fix.

I then patientely wait for the force to pass me by in such a way I can pop off my missiles on the main bodies in the group without worrying about my missiles beeing shot down. I go deep, and fast in opposit direction, re-loading a tube with a fifth missile if there are five amphibious targets.
If need be, I pop off my last missile from 200 ft, and continue to test depth, and prepare for dodging missile delivered torpedoes for the next five to ten minutes.

After succsessful evasion, I go back in to finish off all of the escorts.

Now I don't think this is not how a real CO of a Fast Attack would do it, but it sure is fun!

Point of my lengthy description of my missile tactic:
I would welcome SAM's to pop my missiles, in addition to the CIWS. It would make missile attacks that more challenging!

In response to your last question, I beleive the main reason behind the decision not to add missiles like the TASM and Harpoon to the Type 210 Ula-Class in Norway, was the cost vs gain of adding this capability. I can't be sure of course, but I would guess this is the reason for other Navies in Europe as well.

The Type 210 Ula-Class was fitted with all the equipment needed to handle the above mentioned missiles in it's inventory, but in the end, the Norwegian Navy opted to go with heavy weight torpedoes and mines instead. But it is also natural to assume that the tactical aspect also weighed in. Our boats was part of the anti invasion barrier when they were aquired.
We were tasked with loitering in an area, and wait for the enemy to come to us back in those days. Shooting off missiles would no doubt reveal our position to the enemy, and as you know, a diesel eletric boat, though capable, can't run for very long periods of time, so we would leave ourselves vounarable to counterdetection and counter attack by using such weapons.
Opting for only the very silent swimout torpedoes made sense in that scenario.

We are in the process of buying new boats now, with the German Navy. This time around, things have changed a bit. We are no longer a strictly anti invasion navy anymore. Our boats now is a part of the total NATO submarine capability, and we might be called upon to deliver missiles to inland targets at some point in time.

Also, Norway has developed the highly succsessful Naval Strike Missile, and I think it is a safe bet to say we will be carrying a few of those puppies on our new Type 212 CD when they go into active service somtime around 2025.

- Dolphin 48

[Swingfire]

The problem is that the missiles on Soviet SSGNs get shot down from nowhere with no sign of what intercepted them, they just straight up explode miles away from US ships. What makes me suspicious is that they seem to explode at the exact same time that the Knox-class fires its countermeasures (flares, not the CIWS or missiles which I don't see at all), which makes me wonder if there's a bug.

I think it's lame that even if you manage to get past their superior sonar and their air cover, they just delete your entire volley of missiles instantly like if they were AEGIS cruisers.

[Hydrazine]

I have the same "problem" with the Knox, in two separate occasions i fired a volley of 4 AShM with the Han. The Knox blew them up both times, and i never saw the Phalanx opening fire.
Edit: I tried with the Charlie I, and the Knox just blew all the missiles that I fired at him.

[Electric Boat]

CIWS's efficiency is overpowered in overall. Not possible that AShM cruise missiles are obliterated from the sky every time they are employed making them useless except against unarmed merchants. That's true beginning with the TASM. They were intended to cripple soviet capital ships and large escorts. Try it! They never saw the chance. However because warships have stratified defences, I'd also like to see SAMs being fired. No problem to help with the 3D models. I just have them. But this is the minor phase, I think. But it would be perfect to see SA-N-1 "Goa", SA-N-3 "Goblet" and SA-N-4 "Gecko" SAMs being loaded, trained and fired... wonderful, wonderful anda again wonderful! And now that we have started modelling US ships also RIM-3 "Standard" and RIM-7 "Sea Sparrow" should be added to the wishlist...

[boris.glevrk]

Originally posted by rokvam:

Originally posted by boris.glevrk:

SAMs can't hit anti-ship missiles, they can at most hit a ballistic missile.

Ehh... I think you are wrong here... Seaborn SAM's like the RIM-174 (SM-6), can indeed be, and were designed to be employed against cruise missiles like the ones we use in game.

The ability to shoot down ballistic missiles however is a feat the US are still working hard on perfecting. They have had some succsessful tests inthis field to be sure, but hitting a ballistic missile in flight is not as "easy" as hitting a cruise missile

- Dolphin 48.

While the wiki page of Sea Sparrow did say that they were designed to counter anti-ship missiles, I think it actually means taking out the aircraft carrying said missiles, and not intercepting the missiles themselves. (if it was indeed designed to intercept the missiles themselves, it would be weird for the development history section to exclusively talk about air-launched anti-ship missiles, as it would then have to consider sub-launched and ship-launched missiles as well.)

Yes, cruise missiles can be intercepted, but anti-ship missiles (sea skimmers) flying at wave altitude is probably another story.

And just like stated before, Knox, when armed with Phalanx, would not have a Sea sparrow anyway, and the only SAM the Belknap had would be a SM-2ER, which has a few kilometers of minimum engagement range, not ideal for shooting down ASMs which would only be detectable at close ranges (actually this applies to Sea Sparrow as well, but it would have a smaller minimum range).

For reference, the minimum range for Aster 30 (similar to SM-2) is 3 km, that's much larger than when ships in CW start intercepting missiles. (and the effective range for Phalanx is classified)