Why doesn't my navigator know how to navigate?

[sail64]

Thus far I've flown about 20 missions, ALL of them at low altitude, because the second I get any higher my bloody navigator gets lost . . . Hasn't he heard of a bleeding sextant? Compass bearings? All the other things that allowed the Lanc to bomb from a high altitude?

[Jermi]

most stupid thing is that I can't get the plane to change heading if the navigator is "lost" ie. blind as a bat and unable to use a compass and a stopwatch for navigation like a proper navigator. Custom heading should be available always, no matter if there's a visible ground or not since otherwise getting the hell out of a difficult situation is more difficult than it should be.

[PJ]

My navigator is level 9+ and he can navigate at medium altitude just fine. Ground visibility at med alt. is ~60% and he can navigate alright.

Just stay away from high altitude till your nav is level 8 (so that he can navigate at high alt at night) and from medium altitude till your nav is level 9-12. After that the only time you get lost is at high altitude during day.

[sail64]

It's nice to know he can improve, but since the Lancaster was designed and used as a high altitude night bomber, I still think he should be able to navigate at all altitudes and at night or day from the start.

[culsu]

It is hugely dependent upon RNG and a given mission.

Sometimes it is reasonably clear, sometimes you are just completely screwed and must go low (or high at night with the right skill).

It would really be nice if you could choose compass heading through the pilot at least. That would always be available, even if you could not see anything (or custom navigation always).

[CellNav]

Originally posted by culsu:

It is hugely dependent upon RNG and a given mission.

Sometimes it is reasonably clear, sometimes you are just completely screwed and must go low (or high at night with the right skill).

It would really be nice if you could choose compass heading through the pilot at least. That would always be available, even if you could not see anything (or custom navigation always).

How very true, I sometimes climb to medium altitude on departure to check flight conditions. With regard to chosing a compass heading for the pilot ... well, the pilot relies on the navigator for that and can't be "guessing" where he's going since he might not know where he is in the first place!

Even in todays world, pilots can get lost in clear weather over unfamiliar terrain. It can be hard to do pilotage over friendly territory, I can't imagine being shot at and trying to make my way around over hostile territory (day or night).

@sail64 ... Since you're apparently an expert at navigation then you should have learned how to "dead reckon" during the early missions, perhaps? Also, the Lancaster is a heavy bomber and what altitude they flew at is based on the weather conditions, not simply "because" it can fly at high altitude. And, the term "high altitude" can have many meanings but certainly not considered "low" by any means.

[culsu]

You might not know where you are, and therefore where to set your heading to get to a given destination, but a compass works just fine when you cannot see the ground.

It works as a general approximation, or if you simply need to turn to avoid something like a wall of flak.

[Mania]

Originally posted by sail64:

Thus far I've flown about 20 missions, ALL of them at low altitude, because the second I get any higher my bloody navigator gets lost . . . Hasn't he heard of a bleeding sextant? Compass bearings? All the other things that allowed the Lanc to bomb from a high altitude?

Apparently, he has to "see" the ground, when you can see it just fine from high alt

[sail64]

@sail64 ... Since you're apparently an expert at navigation then you should have learned how to "dead reckon" during the early missions, perhaps? Also, the Lancaster is a heavy bomber and what altitude they flew at is based on the weather conditions, not simply "because" it can fly at high altitude. And, the term "high altitude" can have many meanings but certainly not considered "low" by any means. [/quote]

Is dead reckoning a skill he can learn? I do know how to do dead reckoning, but it would be a bit difficult to do in game since I'm also controlling everyone else at the same time. When I said the Lancaster was designed as a high altitude bomber, I did not mean to imply it couldn't be or wasn't used at low altitudes, only that a number of these missions seem like they would be more appropriate at high altitude. Of course my bomber should also generally be accompanied by quite a few more bombers . . .From what I'm hearing apparently it is easier to navigate at high altitude at least in some cases?

As far as being able to see the target goes, that's why there was generally a primary and a secondary target in case the primary was obscured (for the USAAF at least, not positive about the RAF)

[CellNav]

Originally posted by sail64:

Is dead reckoning a skill he can learn? I do know how to do dead reckoning, but it would be a bit difficult to do in game since I'm also controlling everyone else at the same time. When I said the Lancaster was designed as a high altitude bomber, I did not mean to imply it couldn't be or wasn't used at low altitudes, only that a number of these missions seem like they would be more appropriate at high altitude. Of course my bomber should also generally be accompanied by quite a few more bombers . . .From what I'm hearing apparently it is easier to navigate at high altitude at least in some cases?

As far as being able to see the target goes, that's why there was generally a primary and a secondary target in case the primary was obscured (for the USAAF at least, not positive about the RAF)

Sadly, dead reckoning isn't a skill for our navigator to learn, but would be a good idea though.

They used Path Finder aircraft that would lead the formation to the target, dropping flares and some lead aircraft dropped chaff to cover the aircraft behind them. Later on, aircraft had air-to-ground radar which painted a picture for them to navigate and bomb a target. Basically, with all the advacements in technology, that indicates to me the difficulty of navigation during the war, hence why they tried to improve it.

You can dead reckon ... yes.

After departure and you have selected your first nav point, you are setup to fly in the general direction. Look at the map and note the planes heading and where the target is located. Climb to medium or high altitude (warm clothes recommended), and go back to the NAV screen and watch the map get "clouded" ... your target is barely visable and before you lose the target on the map you can check the ETA. Practice that procedure, then when you get near the target it should "auto-pop" nearby if you are really close (bullseye appears), if not then go to low/med altitude and use the custom heading to manuever around.

Hope that helps!

Don't get me wrong sail64, it's a major PITA to navigate in this game (yeah), but that's the whole point when we look at how to represent the difficulty of navigating in a cpu game ... :/

[CellNav]

Originally posted by culsu:

You might not know where you are, and therefore where to set your heading to get to a given destination, but a compass works just fine when you cannot see the ground.

It works as a general approximation, or if you simply need to turn to avoid something like a wall of flak.

Well, if the pilot decided he was going to stear a compass bearing other than what the navigator game him, then they would definately get lost, and that would make the navigator's job harder. Besides, a single pilot flying a 4-engine plane cannot be bothered to navigate with everything else he needs to do.

Indeed, once the bombs are dropped then it's a free-for-all ... "give me a heading please". Here's a cool audio clip from the war in a Lancaster :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF5_hvE4WEA
Listen for the pilot asking for headings.

EDIT : .... Player makes decisions for the navigator, not the other way around.

[sail64]

What a great clip, accompanied by some great artwork! Thanks for sharing it!

[culsu]

Sure, so the navigator says "fly west" before the pilot does it. Nothing in that changes that you can still read a compass while in a cloud.

Right now you get into situations where you end up doing stuff like taking the pilot out of the seat to get a random direction, or flying off the map east before turning around.

I doubt any bomber crew ever kept heading east until they ran out of fuel due to a lack of navigation data. You know that is wrong even if you do not know exactly where you are.

[CellNav]

Originally posted by culsu:

Sure, so the navigator says "fly west" before the pilot does it. Nothing in that changes that you can still read a compass while in a cloud.

Right now you get into situations where you end up doing stuff like taking the pilot out of the seat to get a random direction, or flying off the map east before turning around.

I doubt any bomber crew ever kept heading east until they ran out of fuel due to a lack of navigation data. You know that is wrong even if you do not know exactly where you are.

I'm not seeing a problem with "dipping down" to medium altitude to get a bearing, then point the plane in the direction you want (custom heading), then climb back up. Also, you can use "evade flak" and "corkscrew" to point the plane in a random direction, a suedo pilot controlled "turn to heading" (so to speak).

It would be fair if the navigator had a "moment of faith" and offered the player a small window to use custom heading (i.e. break in the clouds), yeah.

Originally posted by culsu:

I doubt any bomber crew ever kept heading east until they ran out of fuel due to a lack of navigation data. You know that is wrong even if you do not know exactly where you are.

Good point, but ... YOU know it's wrong and yet you let it get that far? (<--that's your fault).

Teamwork .... You control the situation, you manage the plane. Don't let the game control you for "just because" reasons.

[sail64]

In 1943 the B-24 'Lady Be Good' on its first mission, overflew the airfield in Libya by mistake when returning from a bombing raid on Naples. They kept heading south until they ran out of fuel, bailed out and perished in the desert. The wreckage was finally found in 1958. So yes, it is possible that an inexperienced crew would keep flying until they ran out of fuel.

[Outis]

Originally posted by sail64:

In 1943 the B-24 'Lady Be Good' on its first mission, overflew the airfield in Libya by mistake when returning from a bombing raid on Naples. They kept heading south until they ran out of fuel, bailed out and perished in the desert. The wreckage was finally found in 1958. So yes, it is possible that an inexperienced crew would keep flying until they ran out of fuel.

I remember watching a show on History Channel back in the late 90s about this...very sad. People on the ground at the airfield heard the plane overfly the airfield and they started looking for them the next day, but never found them.

Oil exploration teams found the wreckage and crew remains throughout the years starting in late '50s.