The Walking Dead community is biased and it's a problem

[scarrha]

I betrayed Clementine at the end of season 3 episode 2, Yes I did. Now before you guys try to find out where I live to stab me to death let me explain why.

I played the walking dead season 1 and 2 twice and I love Clem, she is one of my favourite character of all time and just seeing her makes me happy BUT...

When I played season 3 I played it as if I were Javier and as if I didn't know Clementine. Which anyone should be doing. Doing this, the only reasonable decision to me was to betray Clem and this is why. Please try to forget anything you know about Clem from season 1 and 2. You are Javier, this crazy lonewolf girl set a trap on the road to cause an accident that could have killed you. When you choose not to shoot the guy she said that she would have. Back at the camp she shoot someone in the head and ask you to lie about it. When the camp is attacked she said to open fire even if they have an hostage. You later find out that she is, or at least was part of the New Frontier. Nothing indicates that you can trust her.

But even if you do, and I did, you still must chose as if you were Javier. All he wants is to take care of his family, the rest doesn't matter that much to him and he is ready to do anything to protect them. He is about to go face a group of mad people and already killed some of them, he also knows that they probably got Kate so if he doesn't have a plan his chances to save her are really small. Conrad as a gun on his son's head and if you try to shoot you take the risk to hit him. Do you seriously think that Javier (NOT YOU THE PLAYER) is going to take that risk to protect that random crazy cold girl with a bad past ? THERE IS NO WAY.

But still 95% of players did chose to kill Conrad, and that's a problem because it means that players didn't play the game in the way that was intended by the dev. The reason is simple, players are biased and can't get rid of their feelings about Clem and everything they know about her. Which we are supposed to do if we are playing another character.

Episode 3 isn't out yet so as far as I know in my playthrough both Conrad and Clem are still alive. But in everyone else playthrough you got 1 more death and Clem left, so you are on your own.

[[HTP] mr. brightside]

Well I won't argue that. I'll only say that if we remember the OP's point, it's that you don't know Clementine, and in that mindset, not knowing her and then finding out rather late that she was NF, it can definitely raddle one's cage. What other secrets could she be hiding? The fact that she wanted you to cover her murder of another man is althemore troublesome. Of course one could argue that her attitude here when she confronts Javi, and her attitude when trying to hide her relationship to TNF shows great remorse and shame, as well as fear that Javi won't trust her anymore.

It's a tough call, and in both situations, there is equal negative and positive effects, and like I said, if Telltale gave us the option of calling Conrad's bluff, maybe there could have been a way everyone gets out of this unharmed. For me, it's important that the kids realize that death should always be avoided if necessary, and I saw this as an option to avoid death. I know it was a desperate situation, but in all honesty, Javi was not up against the wall here. And there is yet again, future entailments to consider here that can teach Clem a lesson. If you think about it, it's her survivalist attitude that makes her want to flee, which would be putting Javier and his group in the very tough situation of trying to persuade TNF to save Kate and ultimately survive. Like or not, that's cowardice to do run away. If Clem were to be more noble, she would risk her own safety if it meant helping Javi, whom she already owes her life to for saving her from the pipe bomb. Maybe in the future, Clem will see that even though she was forced into this, it ultimately saved lives, and maybe she'll understand it. And I know that you will have plenty opportunity to make up for it with her later. Ultimately, I felt that by shooting Conrad, you once more encourage quick, rash decisions to just shoot people when it's not absolutely necessary, and willing to risk destroying the group just because you were angry at his own irrational behavior. You could say it was for family, but I'm just not convinced that this was that desperate a situation and that Conrad would actually kill a kid in cold-blood unless that kid was seriously messed up in the head and was trying to kill everyone.

But also, on a more personal note, I chose this path because I like character conflict. It's quite obvious Javi and Clementine's relationship is going to be central to this season. Good character development is always confronted with friction and tension.

[Dracown]

I don't think there's a way to play the game, just because you're Javier or Clem or Lee, it really doesn't matter, the fun part of the game (for me at least) is that you can make your own "movie" you can be a really idiot with clem as lee, you can be hard with your family as Javier, you don't have to play like you're in Javier mind and he's a family protector... Actually you're Javier and you make his mind based on your feelings, If you wanna make a friendship between Javier and Clem you can, if you wants to be a jerk to her you can too... Thats what really counts, its not wrong to have a connection with clem because of season 1 and 2, and its not wrong to be a idiot with her too... Thats why I make multiple saves because I can interpret a Character in different ways...

Its not a biases community with problems, its just people that have different opinions and thats not really an issue! You can play and dont trust clem, doesnt mean that all other people who trust her is playing the game wrong... Cuz there's no way to play a TTG wrong unless its a decision that makes your game over...

[Knight Captain Otaku]

Stabstabstabstabstabstabstabstabstabstabstabstabstabstab

[Dk. Jekyll]

Anytime I've played TWD, whenever somebody goes rogue, whether it being Lilly, Nick, Kenny, Clementine or Conrad, I let that person know they went out of line.

As for Clementine joining the New Frontier, I do think that was an act of last resort, yet upon her revelation, I did suspect she was playing with me (as Javier), knowing Alexandria might've been much closer to Prescott than Richmond, but when Conrad threatened Gabe, I didn't think twice before shooting him.

I've said it on other topics, but I'm playing this one without bias.

[Bowfin]

mr. brightside님이 먼저 게시:

Well I won't argue that. I'll only say that if we remember the OP's point, it's that you don't know Clementine, and in that mindset, not knowing her and then finding out rather late that she was NF, it can definitely raddle one's cage. What other secrets could she be hiding? The fact that she wanted you to cover her murder of another man is althemore troublesome. Of course one could argue that her attitude here when she confronts Javi, and her attitude when trying to hide her relationship to TNF shows great remorse and shame, as well as fear that Javi won't trust her anymore.

It's a tough call, and in both situations, there is equal negative and positive effects, and like I said, if Telltale gave us the option of calling Conrad's bluff, maybe there could have been a way everyone gets out of this unharmed. For me, it's important that the kids realize that death should always be avoided if necessary, and I saw this as an option to avoid death. I know it was a desperate situation, but in all honesty, Javi was not up against the wall here. And there is yet again, future entailments to consider here that can teach Clem a lesson. If you think about it, it's her survivalist attitude that makes her want to flee, which would be putting Javier and his group in the very tough situation of trying to persuade TNF to save Kate and ultimately survive. Like or not, that's cowardice to do run away. If Clem were to be more noble, she would risk her own safety if it meant helping Javi, whom she already owes her life to for saving her from the pipe bomb. Maybe in the future, Clem will see that even though she was forced into this, it ultimately saved lives, and maybe she'll understand it. And I know that you will have plenty opportunity to make up for it with her later. Ultimately, I felt that by shooting Conrad, you once more encourage quick, rash decisions to just shoot people when it's not absolutely necessary, and willing to risk destroying the group just because you were angry at his own irrational behavior. You could say it was for family, but I'm just not convinced that this was that desperate a situation and that Conrad would actually kill a kid in cold-blood unless that kid was seriously messed up in the head and was trying to kill everyone.

But also, on a more personal note, I chose this path because I like character conflict. It's quite obvious Javi and Clementine's relationship is going to be central to this season. Good character development is always confronted with friction and tension.

So you think Clemintine should be noble and self sacrificing and not Javier, Clementine could have just bolted in the junkyard when the bullets started flying, but she chose to stay and fight for Javier and his family. I would shoot Javier myself if he hid behind a 13 year old girl to save himself, maybe he should show a child the meaning of self scafice by doing it himself, lead by example.

Conrad's plan might save life's but it risks Clemintine's. Why would she volunteer for a suiside mission. It wasn't Clemintine's fault Kate got shot. It's a plan born from cowardice, nothing more.

In the tunnel Clemintine tells Conrad to shoot her, she would rather die right then and there ,than face TNF. I think that tells us all we need to know about what her fate would be if we use her to gain access to Richmond.

I see your point about conflict, it does make your great drama.

[ScorpioProX]

I disagree with the OP. Clem is the most trustworthy person I have met so far.

She did not shoot me when we first met.
She did not even take the candy bar for my niece.
She gave me a gun.
She gave u the advice to kill the people that shot your niece telling u they will come after u, she was right.
She is still there after the fight if u pass out.
She open fire when they wanted to execute me when u go down and talk to the nice people that shot your niece, while the rest just watched.
She even voluntary shares information about herself that could get her shot on the spot.

Remarkable loyalty.
Why on earth would I betray her? As for doing anything for family goes its bs. Sure u go out of your way to help out, but I draw the line at send people to their potential death for a small chance it will make a difference. We already know NF cant be trusted I see absolutely no reason to hand her over other than the ramblings of a mad man. I drew my gun at his suggestion. I did not see the need to kill him on the spot, since I was in full control, but that was not an option.

[Bowfin]

ScorpioProX님이 먼저 게시:

I disagree with the OP. Clem is the most trustworthy person I have met so far.

She did not shoot me when we first met.
She did not even take the candy bar for my niece.
She gave me a gun.
She gave u the advice to kill the people that shot your niece telling u they will come after u, she was right.
She is still there after the fight if u pass out.
She open fire when they wanted to execute me when u go down and talk to the nice people that shot your niece, while the rest just watched.
She even voluntary shares information about herself that could get her shot on the spot.

Remarkable loyalty.
Why on earth would I betray her? As for doing anything for family goes its bs. Sure u go out of your way to help out, but I draw the line at send people to their potential death for a small chance it will make a difference. We already know NF cant be trusted I see absolutely no reason to hand her over other than the ramblings of a mad man. I drew my gun at his suggestion. I did not see the need to kill him on the spot, since I was in full control, but that was not an option.

I'll take this person in my group any day.

[[HTP] mr. brightside]

Bowfin님이 먼저 게시:

So you think Clemintine should be noble and self sacrificing and not Javier, Clementine could have just bolted in the junkyard when the bullets started flying, but she chose to stay and fight for Javier and his family. I would shoot Javier myself if he hid behind a 13 year old girl to save himself, maybe he should show a child the meaning of self scafice by doing it himself, lead by example.

Conrad's plan might save life's but it risks Clemintine's. Why would she volunteer for a suiside mission. It wasn't Clemintine's fault Kate got shot. It's a plan born from cowardice, nothing more.

In the tunnel Clemintine tells Conrad to shoot her, she would rather die right then and there ,than face TNF. I think that tells us all we need to know about what her fate would be if we use her to gain access to Richmond.

I see your point about conflict, it does make your great drama.

I'm not sure I follow your first point. I didn't say anything about Javi sacrificing himself, and I see no reason to believe he would never do that, so I don't know where you're going with that. What Clem did in the junkyard was a noble thing to do, no doubt, but that doesn't mean she is incapable of doing cowardice acts in the future.

One man's cowardly and obviously absurd plan doesn't give Clem or anyone else the just means to do it right back. You make a good point about Clem rather being shot there than going back to TNF, however, I still think all things considered, that Javi did in fact save Clementine's life obligated her to help him. No it's not her fault Kate got shot, but the whole idea of a noble act is that you do right by someone even if it means harm by yourself.

[Bowfin]

I understand that, what is confusing the hell out of me is why you think Clemintine would feel she has to offer her life up for Javier. They have only just met ,been getting to know one another. How did we go from that to Clementine offering herself up to people that most likely kill her.

If she chooses to do it, then and only then would it be a noble act,it loses its meaninng if theres a gun to her head.I would talk her out of it. It's too dangerous. I'll put my own life on the line before I let a child do it.

[Dk. Jekyll]

ScorpioProX님이 먼저 게시:

She did not even take the candy bar for my niece.

She will, if you don't say anything or plainly call her a thief.

[Bowfin]

Dk. Jekyll님이 먼저 게시:

ScorpioProX님이 먼저 게시:

She did not even take the candy bar for my niece.

She will, if you don't say anything or plainly call her a thief.

There's reason enough to throw her to the wolfs. J/k

[Antares the red]

ScorpioProX님이 먼저 게시:

I disagree with the OP. Clem is the most trustworthy person I have met so far.

She did not shoot me when we first met.
She did not even take the candy bar for my niece.
She gave me a gun.
She gave u the advice to kill the people that shot your niece telling u they will come after u, she was right.
She is still there after the fight if u pass out.
She open fire when they wanted to execute me when u go down and talk to the nice people that shot your niece, while the rest just watched.
She even voluntary shares information about herself that could get her shot on the spot.

Remarkable loyalty.
Why on earth would I betray her? As for doing anything for family goes its bs. Sure u go out of your way to help out, but I draw the line at send people to their potential death for a small chance it will make a difference. We already know NF cant be trusted I see absolutely no reason to hand her over other than the ramblings of a mad man. I drew my gun at his suggestion. I did not see the need to kill him on the spot, since I was in full control, but that was not an option.

Just this!! If you really analize what you, as Javier, went through in the first 2 episodes, Clem is way more trustworthy then a crazy man who gunpoint a kid to get his way, whitch was basically a death sentence for her!! I would have loved an option to talk him out of it...
Also don't forget that he wasn't giving a damnd about you during the Prescott assault. He was ready to let you die! I understand they had his wife, but still!

[[HTP] mr. brightside]

Bowfin님이 먼저 게시:

I understand that, what is confusing the hell out of me is why you think Clemintine would feel she has to offer her life up for Javier. They have only just met ,been getting to know one another. How did we go from that to Clementine offering herself up to people that most likely kill her.

If she chooses to do it, then and only then would it be a noble act,it loses its meaninng if theres a gun to her head.I would talk her out of it. It's too dangerous. I'll put my own life on the line before I let a child do it.

Because Javi saved her from the pipe bomb during the firefight after Mari was shot. Clem even confesses that Javi saved her life.

You're making my point now: It would have been a noble thing to do, but she didn't want to do it, so that potentially shows cowardly survivalist instinct. Maybe not, and I'm not saying that there is not justifiable reason for Clementine refusing to go to TNF. Javi is not forcing Clementine to do anything, Conrad is. Again, you seem to keep assuming the only way Javi goes through with Conrad's plan is by actually approving of using Clementine. You have the option of doing this reluctantly and bitterly, which is how I chose to go about it, and I think that invalidates the idea that Javi is basically throwing a little girl to the wolves to save his family. He's trying to save as many lives as possible, including Kate and Conrad. Yeah, the guy is turning into a jerk, but he is still an ally against TNF. In case crap hits the fan, he's one more extra gun in your group, which is small enough as it is.

[Bowfin]

Conrad will be dead within 5 minutes of meeting up with TNF, he'll do something stupid and end up dead.
And Clementine will remember that you sided with Conrad. It's that black and white. Bottom line you don't trade in flesh. Your showing Clem that you'll do whatever it takes to save your family, so don't be surprised when she turns that back on you. If it was fine for you to trade her against her will ,then turnabout is fair play.

Furthermore if you want to teach someone about self scafice, you show them by doing it yourself. It's not noble to be forced into doing something against your will.

I was really hoping you had a good reason to side with Conrad ,It would have made things interesting. I could understand if you said my Javier is selfish and single minded, with no regard for other people.
Saying it was Conrad's idea is a copout, the guy could careless about you ,all Conrad cares about is revenge, and that could get everyone killed.

[[HTP] mr. brightside]

With all due respect, you are inserting your view of my motivations for siding with Conrad arbitrarily. Your assertion that Conrad will get whacked in no time is purely speculative; I see no substantial reason to believe that is not forced assertion, but your idea that Clem will have a hard time forgiving you for your actions certainly is plausible, so I grant that. Still, I don't think this is black and white, and it would be a boring game if it was. Maybe making amends will be difficult but I don't believe Telltale is going to just punish you morally by choosing to side with Conrad by torturing you with a forever distrusting Clementine. But you seem to be insisting that I have only one motivation for siding with Conrad and that is clearly a desire to use Clementine as a bargaining chip.

Again i say to you that is simply not true; it's false dilemma. As I have said over and over again, just because I went with the option to go with Conrad DOES NOT immediately and by way of reduction imply that I am willing to throw Clementine to the wolves for my own sake. It's a reluctant agreement, and again as I have said, if you show that reluctance and the opposition to this idea, it seems to have an effect on Clementine. When you tell TNF that you hate what you are doing to her right now, she seems to show sympathy towards that.

If Javier's motives are for the purpose of keeping the group in tact and prevent death as best as possible, then his motivations cannot be that of sacrificing someone else for his own sake, but merely the hope to keep everyone from killing each other for their own causes.