Initial Impressions (and small suggestions)

[Droj]

Wow, I am enjoying this way too much. Eshe's movement is so fluid, it's just so fun to run and jump around the map. The wall-jumping is intuitive and responsive, unlike a LOT of other games I could mention. (This is with keyboard controls, by the way. If using a controller is supposed to be better, I can't imagine how.)

The environments, while a little barren, are quite nice. I've seen others complain about the repetitiveness of certain arrangements, but I find the deja vu really enhances the feeling that something is just wrong with this world. (Speaking of which--the crystal rooms! No spoilers, but I really like those effects.)

The map itself is a little unusual, but it was easy to figure it out after a little playtime. (As an amusing aside, I almost had a heart attack when I reloaded my save and saw an empty map. What a relief when it reappeared after leaving the sanctuary!) I feel the use of icons could use a little polish though:

• The shortcut and ability gate icons for instance are almost identical. I have to check the legend every time to see which I'm looking at.
  
  
• Why are only half of the icons included in the legend? It's in a weird place halfway between "here's what everything means" and "figure it out yourself".
  
  
• Endless horde areas REALLY need an icon. It doesn't have to appear before you enter, but there should be one once you know it's there.

And now we come to combat (which really seems to make it or break it for how people like the game). I'm actually enjoying it quite a bit! Yes, I'm dying a lot, but it doesn't seem particularly unfair. (Well, except that one time when a horde chased me into a miniboss room and I couldn't go back and kill the hunter that was sniping at me for the whole fight. Not sure I can blame the game for that though, seeing how I saw the icon and still ran in that direction.) The hordes are really tough, but I feel like there are almost always enough options to handle them. Often the best option is to run. I approve of this SO MUCH. More games need it.

The horde changes currently being considered sound interesting and I'm looking forward to trying them out, but honestly the only change I really want is for the buzzer. It's too soft! I can barely hear it, which is a pity because I haven't even reached the first boss and I've already been conditioned to dread it. Let it ring out loud and clear, that mortals may hear it and despair at the sound! (Or at least add an option for it.)

One last thing: I haven't gotten that far in the game yet, but "resist or embrace" has already seeped into my real life. I started up the game for the first time after work yesterday and next thing I know it's 3AM and I'm trying to decide whether to Resist the call and try to get some sleep, or to Embrace it and make another (and another, and another...) attempt to get through the Barracks before I hit the first boss.

Good job, Thunder Lotus!

[Scaryrabbit]

Thanks for the kind words! Those suggestions of yours are both well thought out and something we will definitely consider!

Do keep us posted on your further impressions on the game. I would be the first to call it far from perfect, that that is a goal we'll keep striving for!

[Droj]

Further impressions, having completed the first two areas and gotten well into the Cathedral:

Still enjoying everything quite a bit. I'm having a much easier time with the hordes. I want to say it's because I've gotten better at combat, but the stat boosts from my failures probably helped. One thing that really helped was realizing combat isn't about hitting things--it's about controlling your space. Once I realized that position is the absolute most important aspect of survival (and started investing in energy so I could reposition easier) I started feeling in control even during the hordes (with one exception) and surviving much much longer.

Entering the Cathedral was rough. Huge difficulty spike. Once I figured out how to deal with the new enemies and got the last couple of abilities, it got fun again and turned into a level showing off all the game has to offer, but getting there was really really tough. There are a lot of sudden changes when you enter that area, and while individually they’d be a challenge, learning them all simultaneously is murder.

The map changes character. Previous areas were Eshe-sized--even in the caves, there was enough room to maneuver, and the jumps were fairly well tailored for her. Here though, the jumps get tricky. The caves are cramped, and the cathedral itself is vast. On its own, this is fine (and very cool once you're used to it). But at the same time...

The environmental hazards suddenly change character. Poison mushrooms emit clouds that cover almost a full screen and last a LONG time. Wind is everywhere and cannot be avoided. And suddenly there are deadly bottomless pits? (Or maybe just the one, I haven't figured out when and where they are yet.) In earlier areas, you just had to avoid walking into a hazard, or take damage. In the cathedral, the primary danger lies in the limits they place on your movement.

Now add cultists to the mix. At the same time you're struggling to come to terms with the new style of navigation required, you're getting boxed in next to (ie: less than a screen away from) a poison mushroom. When you break out, the wind blows you off course, and you're more worried about falling than fighting because you don't even know if there's even a floor below you. And there's never just one cultist. Box-lock is a thing, and it's no fun. With five cultists in a horde, you can spend thirty seconds trying to fight your way out of the damn box! This is the exception I mentioned earlier to feeling in control of the hordes. I think I've finally got the hang of the cathedral, but cultist spawns still aren't fun.

So... suggestions. It's probably too late to add new areas to the game to introduce wind and such before the cathedral, so I'll focus on other issues (mostly cultists). I’m not suggesting ALL of these be implemented, just throwing out ideas:

• Add a global box cooldown, not allowing ANY cultist to box the player until they've been out of the last one for at least X seconds (could be lower on harder difficulty levels).
  
  
• Make boxes phase in, giving the player a short window to escape and/or destroy the box before it solidifies.
  
  
• Alter the cultist AI. Every other enemy pursues the player in some fashion, or has a tell that allows the player to find them. Cultists just hang out nearby, usually off-screen, forcing the player to hunt them down. And if you go in the wrong direction, they just quietly relocate. After box-lock this is probably the most annoying thing about them.
  
  
• Tone down the mushrooms a bit--reduce the size or increase the growth/decay speed of their poison clouds.
  
  
• Alternately, maybe don't spawn so many mushrooms so close together? As is, poison clouds can easily deny enormous sections of the map.

Having got that out of the way, let me get back to praising the game. The final abilities are a lot of fun to use. I particularly like not having to aim the grapple--it might be easier to do with a controller, but I can never aim those things in these games so it’s very much appreciated. It’s sometimes hard to tell which enemy it’s going to target though. Perhaps a loading-screen tip explaining the grapple’s aiming priority would be useful?

Love the grabby green cloudy corruption in the cathedral. Can’t wait to see how that develops as I continue opening locks. Getting close now I think.

I don’t quite understand the endless horde areas in the cathedral area. They seem slow to start compared to earlier examples, and I could swear that I’ve actually experienced lulls or pauses in the action. It’s helpful but weird and makes me wonder if it’s supposed to be like that. Then five medusas come and I die. I want to say some choice words about them, but I’ve only met them in one of the horde areas so I don't know how bad they are in smaller numbers. As you can guess, I was too busy dying painfully to even note the full name. (Initial impression: Too everything.)

tl;dr: Still lots of fun. One hugely frustrating difficulty spike, but great when you’ve broken through.

Final impressions when I finish the game.

[Scaryrabbit]

Thanks for the write-up!

We already have identified the cultists as a major problem and frustration. We are currently testing internally to add an anticipation to their boxes both to tell you they are coming and to let you get out before they close onto you. We also increased the delay before which they can cast those boxes.

We'll keep monitoring the situation.

[drj3rk]

One more quick comment to say how cool it is that you guys are so responsive to people with constructive ideas.

[Scaryrabbit]

We'd be dumb not to when we get such constructive and comprehensive feedback :p

[Droj]

Originally posted by Scaryrabbit:

Thanks for the write-up!

We already have identified the cultists as a major problem and frustration. We are currently testing internally to add an anticipation to their boxes both to tell you they are coming and to let you get out before they close onto you. We also increased the delay before which they can cast those boxes.

We'll keep monitoring the situation.

Awesome! I thought I'd read that somewhere, but couldn't find it because the forum has gone a little nuts since release. I can't imagine how hard it must be to keep up with everything right now, but looks like you're doing a great job.

[them4pples]

great feedback

[MechaTails]

•I don't know if the maps are random since i'm still on my first play through, but yeah it feels "wrong" when I run into a familiar/samey room. I wouldn't exactly praise it as a feature, but I can see how it could contribute lore-wise.

•Yeah the map icons...I don't know, I like maps riddled with icons, like the recent Mad Max game, but maybe this game's clean hand-drawn aesthetic benefits from a less cluttered UI.

•I also like the combat, though I wish there were more combos to perform, but I'm so busy dodging and trying not to die that performing combos would slip my mind in the middle of a fight.

[Droj]

Whew! What a trip! Just finished full Resist ending, and that was a crazy boss! Kind of screwed myself by avoiding cannon upgrades in the skill tree but managed to beat it on the second try regardless.

Ending spoilers: Nice ambiguity on the Resist ending, very fitting for the Lovecraftian themes. As I said in another thread, aint no happy endings in this genre. It isn't until I think back on it that I realize we never learned what Eshe was doing in the desert, or what eventually happened to the Valkyries. It would be nice to know these things (future additional content perhaps?), but overall I'm quite satisfied with the story.

Okay, boss time. I was a little worried after beating Dominion and Hysteria back-to-back--they look quite different, but have exactly the same weakness and play very similarly if you account for the different environment. I'm glad that the Legion and Salvation fight played out differently even if did take me too long to figure out you don't have to stun both at once. Also even though Salvation is a jerk who likes hiding her weak spot in the walls and floor and Legion constantly flips whenever the player approaches, moving his weak spot ridiculously fast. They could both learn from Nyarlathotep and his accursed gale-force-wind-with-skulls that interrupts every method of movement though.

Sorry, just had to vent a little.

I love the visual design of all the bosses. While I admire the insanity of the Resist boss, my favorite is actually Dominion. Best looks, best intro, prettiest arena, and challenging-but-fair-est mechanics. (Again, similar to Hysteria, but I guess I like jumping around islands in the air better than just being thrown up there. Also, portal-fists are better than giant lasers.)

The minibosses were pretty cool. I found the first few quite difficult, but by the end they were a bit more laid-back. Since they couldn't threaten me as well as the earlier ones, I liked the way the final set behaved differently than their regular counterparts. My favorite overall was the hunter and his game of hide-and-seek. Later I would find the practice I got there useful for when the grapple started becoming more important for moving around endless hordes and boss arenas, so that's a plus too. My least favorite was the Observer. I suppose I should have guessed from the name, but it was super easy and kind of dull.

The cathedral level continued to be fun--I will never get tired of air-dashing and grappling all over the place. I eventually figured out the "bottomless pit"--it was one of those black clouds on the map that represent the green grabby corruption, which I hadn't seen yet when I first fell into it. One one hand I'm kind of disappointed that it didn't make it into the boss fight in some way, but on the other I'm glad there was no instant death involved. That was bad enough in the rest of the level! (I don't think I'd change it though. It makes sense and is incredibly atmospheric.)

I'd like to revise my tentative opinion of the medusazoas(?). My initial encounter was in a cramped cave with endless hordes. Having encountered them in smaller numbers under normal circumstances, I think they're fine. Definitely high priority when the hordes arrive, but fine. Also difficult to spell, but still fine.

The trophies in the Sanctuary were a nice touch. I'm a sucker for little details like that.

Let's see, what else is there? I didn't play around much with perks, mostly sticking to health and armor. I ran Berserk for a while which was fun, but took it off when I went into the endless hordes. Shield absorption was tempting, but the increased downtime scared me off--I'm not the best at combat and relied pretty heavily on quick recharge. I have to say I really appreciate the risk you took in making almost all the perks come with a significant drawback. There are good mechanical reasons for that (making different builds feel different for one), but I actually like it for the atmosphere it adds--it makes it clear that this world is very much against you. You can wrest power from it, but there will be a price. A smaller echo of the "resist or embrace" theme, I guess.

I don't really have any suggestions this time. Just going to repeat that I would love additional story to fill in the things we didn't learn in this version. Oh, and I'll echo a suggestion I saw elsewhere: It would be neat to be able to replay the earlier bosses (or minibosses even). I noticed a few very small oddities, but there's also been a patch so I'll test that before bringing them up.

Finally, my impressions wouldn't be complete without applauding the composer. I don't know if I will ever just sit and listen to the soundtrack, but it was perfect for this game. Moody, questioning, melancholy... perfect. I'd like to particularly praise the track for the abomination miniboss. Slithery, squelching, hair-raising--just wow. The music really took that fight to the next level!

Final stats: Normal difficulty, full Resist ending, 98% completion (missing one perk), slightly less than 20 hours. Number of deaths: No comment.

Next up, full Embrace! Looking forward to seeing how differently things play out. (Also working up a review for you guys--I've never done that before, but you deserve it!)

[Droj]

Originally posted by MechaTails:

•I don't know if the maps are random since i'm still on my first play through, but yeah it feels "wrong" when I run into a familiar/samey room. I wouldn't exactly praise it as a feature, but I can see how it could contribute lore-wise.

•Yeah the map icons...I don't know, I like maps riddled with icons, like the recent Mad Max game, but maybe this game's clean hand-drawn aesthetic benefits from a less cluttered UI.

•I also like the combat, though I wish there were more combos to perform, but I'm so busy dodging and trying not to die that performing combos would slip my mind in the middle of a fight.

By the end, I got to the point where I was familiar with the underlying logic of the randomized paths. (Too many attempts at the endless hordes haha.) I almost didn't notice the rooms themselves any more, just following the route I knew would take me the right way through the newly-randomized areas. (Is this really any different from any other metroidvania though?) It was certainly an interesting experiment. I'm not sure it added anything mechanically (aside from the endless areas, which are definitely better for the randomization), but it definitely helps with the characterization of the world.

I could see the icons going either way, but the longer I play, the more I tend to lean towards less explanation--this is a metroidvania after all. (Obviously this isn't exactly a fair opinion because I don't NEED the explanation any more.) I'm glad that in the end the infinite hordes got shaded rooms rather than an icon. It's subtler, not something we see enough of in games.

As for combos, I'd say the movement abilities start acting like combos towards the endgame.* It takes a long time to build up the full repertoire, but I'll say it again: metroidvania. In my Resist game, there were three kinds of dodges doing different amounts of damage, at least three non-dodge escape moves, plus one actual damage combo. I imagine they'll be even more versatile in an Embrace run.

*Note that I don't play many fighting games so I might be mistaken as to what "combo" means. I'm using it as a synonym for "combat technique."

[Scaryrabbit]

Thanks for the write-up!