Please dont Pay2Win this like Minion Masters or Clash Royale

[BestNoob]

Minion Masters, Brawl of Ages & Clash Royale games with the same gameplay but MM and CR are Pay2Win (or Pay 2 have fun or you wait until you get old)

And i please you to dont do this with BoA, i saw this Gems and i hope thats only for cosmetics.

[Sudsie]

What about those games feels like they are Pay2Win?

Brawl has no power multipliers, so nobody can have cards any stronger than their opponents. This was one of a few very important goals for us.

[BestNoob]

Originally posted by Sudsie:

What about those games feels like they are Pay2Win?

Brawl has no power multipliers, so nobody can have cards any stronger than their opponents. This was one of a few very important goals for us.

Come on you are not a 10 years old kid that is not able to recognize psychologic tricks of the developers. Blizzard and Supercell are the bigest developers who use psychological (marketing) tricks to get ppl to pay for their games. A Free2Play game should be completly Free2Play and not indirectly Pay2Win ..... I just hope that you doesnt implement such things.

[Sudsie]

We have no plans to. I am not disagreeing with your assessment :) I am just curious what things you find egregious in their Pay 2 Win tactics.

[BestNoob]

Originally posted by Sudsie:

We have no plans to. I am not disagreeing with your assessment :) I am just curious what things you find egregious in their Pay 2 Win tactics.

I think its not needed to use such tactics. And it is also not needed (i dont use company names here) to bleed out the community/players and than give a f** of them. There are enough other ways to make money. The goal should be like in the good old times to make games that give they players a lot of fun. Focus should be the player and the product. A company should and must make money but a lot of big companys like Ubisoft, EA, Valve, Blizzard, Microsoft, Activision have left this path. For those only $$€€ counts and not the fun and the players.

And the thing is .. its simply not needed. You can make people happy and still get enough money. A lot of people doesnt care about they, and they wont think about and they pay for rubbish. I mean they like it xD. But in the end we all have a problem then less quality, less fun.

Cheap is good and german "Geiz ist Geil" was also a marketingstrategy. To manipulate the users but you see now how it ended here :D companys need new strategics because they have destroyed the balance by theirself :D

I think you understand this is a big theme and i cannot write down all. And i think you understand what i mean.

[KappaUndercover]

Clash Royale is P2W no doubt about that. But Minion Masters is the perfect example for a balanced pay-method. Do you saw the high-tier decks? i did. They were like 90% commons and 75% free cards you get when u start playing. I never paid anything and archieved easy master rank :) but yeah i hope p2w wont be a part in Brawl of Ages like it is in Clash Royale.

[BestNoob]

Originally posted by Kappa undercover:

Clash Royale is P2W no doubt about that. But Minion Masters is the perfect example for a balanced pay-method. Do you saw the high-tier decks? i did. They were like 90% commons and 75% free cards you get when u start playing. I never paid anything and archieved easy master rank :) but yeah i hope p2w wont be a part in Brawl of Ages like it is in Clash Royale.

Hearthstone, Minion Masters same cheap Psychological trick. Simplyfied: Its programmed Unbalance to force people to pay for better units. And dont say its based on skill we all know thats a lie. This is not a kindergarden or a political round full of liers. Were old enough to talk about the things or ?

Ye but all this doesnt matter this are different games. Lets hope that BoA will make all better =)

[Fenald]

Originally posted by BestNoob:

Originally posted by Kappa undercover:

Clash Royale is P2W no doubt about that. But Minion Masters is the perfect example for a balanced pay-method. Do you saw the high-tier decks? i did. They were like 90% commons and 75% free cards you get when u start playing. I never paid anything and archieved easy master rank :) but yeah i hope p2w wont be a part in Brawl of Ages like it is in Clash Royale.

Hearthstone, Minion Masters same cheap Psychological trick. Simplyfied: Its programmed Unbalance to force people to pay for better units. And dont say its based on skill we all know thats a lie. This is not a kindergarden or a political round full of liers. Were old enough to talk about the things or ?

Ye but all this doesnt matter this are different games. Lets hope that BoA will make all better =)

Hearthstones model isn't pay to win it's pay to save time. if you play hearthstone daily you'll unlock most cards and get enough dust to buy the ones you want for any deck before new sets come out. If you do well in arena you'll do it even faster.

[Safety Depips¬]

There's currently no P2W elements in the game. Any locked items can be unlocked without spending real-life currency.

[JuRiOh]

Originally posted by BestNoob:

Hearthstone, Minion Masters same cheap Psychological trick. Simplyfied: Its programmed Unbalance to force people to pay for better units.

lol git gud. The only "psychological trick" here is the one your psyche playing on yourself. It is quite common for people who are simply bad at a game to blame it on luck, bad team mates or a P2W advantage, that way they can tell themselves it's not their fault for losing but someone elses.

[dkimber]

Ok, I haven't had the opportunity to play BoA, though I did watch a few hours of Kripp playing it on Twitch. I am also a game designer for the last 17+ years. These are a few of my thoughts on the game and some of the above comments on P2W tactics.

1. This game is essentially a PC version of Clash Royale by Supercell, which itself 'borrowed' the art style and narrative from their own Clash of Clans and Blizzard's Hearthstone (they took the best part of tower defense (the actual battles) and the card collection mechanic from CCGs and blended them).

2. Neither CR or HS are strictly pay to win. You can (and I have) grind the game and earn in-game currencies to purchase or craft anything they offer. What each does offer though is the ancient choice of 'time vs. convenience'. Do you wanna' grind say, 5 hours to earn enough to get the card you want? Or do you wanna' pay anywhere from $2-$20 bucks? RNG is a factor when you open packs/chests. It'll take you (a LOT) longer, but you can get everything Mr. Moneybags has eventually. Probably not before they put out new content, but hey, it's FREE guys. You keep forgetting that. They have to make money somehow, you think they show up to work everyday for the 'love of the game'?

3. Regardless of people who pay or not, CR very much offers the opportunity for skill to outweigh someone's cash-boosted cards. I've seen and done it plenty of times. Just because you have high-level cards doesn't guarentee a victory by any means. And that is somewhat nullified if the developer above's assertion that they don't level cards is true. A card is a card is a card. One of the negatives to CR is when you get a new card you don't feel like you can really try it out because it's just a level 1 and is nearly worthless unless you're at very low levels. BoA seems to address this, even though they will theoretically lose money it is a good decision since it doesn't totally eliminate a new player's chances when learning the game. Always a trade-off!

4. From watching the BoA gameplay it looks like it may actually offer up multiple types of strategies (rush/aggro, control, combo). If done well this will bode well for the longevity of the game, but the key will be in regular content updates and regular tuning tweaks to imbalances.

5. Personally, my hope is always that there is a strong single player component to these games, which there hardly ever is. HS has a decent single player starting experience that gets you all the basic cards and teaches you the game. CRs is decent enough but honestly I would prefer to play good AI sometimes over PVP. As a designer I know the reasons for making PVP the cornerstone (good AI is harder to do, single player campaigns require a lot more design and content and is consumed almost immediately so it isn't worth the developer investment for smaller games, to name a couple reasons).

Anyway, I have more to say but I'll leave it at that until I get to actually play the game. For now my tagline would be "Clash Royale on PC", so I'm curious what differentiators there will be that evolve and improve the gameplay in different directions. One way I'd play the hell out of this is if there were a VR mode option, because if you guys don't do it then someone else will (like... me...).

Good luck guys!

[loofyd]

Originally posted by dkimber:

Ok, I haven't had the opportunity to play BoA, though I did watch a few hours of Kripp playing it on Twitch. I am also a game designer for the last 17+ years. These are a few of my thoughts on the game and some of the above comments on P2W tactics.

1. This game is essentially a PC version of Clash Royale by Supercell, which itself 'borrowed' the art style and narrative from their own Clash of Clans and Blizzard's Hearthstone (they took the best part of tower defense (the actual battles) and the card collection mechanic from CCGs and blended them).

2. Neither CR or HS are strictly pay to win. You can (and I have) grind the game and earn in-game currencies to purchase or craft anything they offer. What each does offer though is the ancient choice of 'time vs. convenience'. Do you wanna' grind say, 5 hours to earn enough to get the card you want? Or do you wanna' pay anywhere from $2-$20 bucks? RNG is a factor when you open packs/chests. It'll take you (a LOT) longer, but you can get everything Mr. Moneybags has eventually. Probably not before they put out new content, but hey, it's FREE guys. You keep forgetting that. They have to make money somehow, you think they show up to work everyday for the 'love of the game'?

3. Regardless of people who pay or not, CR very much offers the opportunity for skill to outweigh someone's cash-boosted cards. I've seen and done it plenty of times. Just because you have high-level cards doesn't guarentee a victory by any means. And that is somewhat nullified if the developer above's assertion that they don't level cards is true. A card is a card is a card. One of the negatives to CR is when you get a new card you don't feel like you can really try it out because it's just a level 1 and is nearly worthless unless you're at very low levels. BoA seems to address this, even though they will theoretically lose money it is a good decision since it doesn't totally eliminate a new player's chances when learning the game. Always a trade-off!

4. From watching the BoA gameplay it looks like it may actually offer up multiple types of strategies (rush/aggro, control, combo). If done well this will bode well for the longevity of the game, but the key will be in regular content updates and regular tuning tweaks to imbalances.

5. Personally, my hope is always that there is a strong single player component to these games, which there hardly ever is. HS has a decent single player starting experience that gets you all the basic cards and teaches you the game. CRs is decent enough but honestly I would prefer to play good AI sometimes over PVP. As a designer I know the reasons for making PVP the cornerstone (good AI is harder to do, single player campaigns require a lot more design and content and is consumed almost immediately so it isn't worth the developer investment for smaller games, to name a couple reasons).

Anyway, I have more to say but I'll leave it at that until I get to actually play the game. For now my tagline would be "Clash Royale on PC", so I'm curious what differentiators there will be that evolve and improve the gameplay in different directions. One way I'd play the hell out of this is if there were a VR mode option, because if you guys don't do it then someone else will (like... me...).

Good luck guys!

are you a computer engineer ?

i enjoyed reading your analysis and am interested in game design myself.

i would like to talk to you sometime and ask a few questions , if it's ok with you

[Midblade]

P2W = not being able to get premium things without paying money. Clash Royale you can get everything without paying a dime. It will just take longer.

[Zylon]

Originally posted by Midblade:

P2W = not being able to get premium things without paying money. Clash Royale you can get everything without paying a dime. It will just take longer.

No that is your personal take on it. Pay to Win is easy to understand. Anytime you pay and win, because of any game mechanic over someone that does not pay or pays less is P2W.

It works fine in Asian markets, but the Western market is different. They will get annoyed, get very focal about it and leave in mass.

For that reason it is usually hidden from sight, by all kinds of obscure methods.


I do like CR kind of games and there is not much competition. (yet) .
No power multiplyer on cards is great. I like that idea.. That is enough reason for me to try the game.

[Midblade]

Its not my personal take on it. It is a fact lol. I see a player that has a level 5 card the first day the game came out. He bought the card, can I beat him now? no. Can I beat him later? yes. Pay to win is if the only way I could get that card is by paying money. "I cannot beat Jimmy because he bought a card that is super powerful and I cant afford to buy it so I cant beat him." That my friend is pay to win because you are garunteeing yourself to always win by paying money because that free to play player will never have that card hence you cant beat him.

[JuRiOh]

Originally posted by Midblade:

Its not my personal take on it. It is a fact lol. I see a player that has a level 5 card the first day the game came out. He bought the card, can I beat him now? no. Can I beat him later? yes. Pay to win is if the only way I could get that card is by paying money. "I cannot beat Jimmy because he bought a card that is super powerful and I cant afford to buy it so I cant beat him." That my friend is pay to win because you are garunteeing yourself to always win by paying money because that free to play player will never have that card hence you cant beat him.

That's not how it works. P2W simply indicates that money can give you an advantage. Any game that allows you to buy progress that would otherwise have to be grinded with hours and hours of playtime, is P2W. Only cosmetic purchases are not P2W. Of course there is varying degrees of P2W in games. Games in which you just purchase packs to get cards are not nearly as P2W as games that allow you to level up cards(especially if it's infnite upgrades).