Leman Russ tanks are a trifle overattuned

[BooDaddy]

The turret gun and charge are balanced, the tank it'self is ...well... a tank with plenty of HP.

My issue comes from the side sponsons. The guns there seem to do brutal amounts of damage.

The volleys are practically un-avoidable and can outright kill the player if it crits a couple of times. It's damage seems overtuned compared to most other attacks and abilities.

[Nishven]

Those games introduced a way to weakened the player or empowered the challenges to counterbalance the power of the player (except Grim Dawn, but a Nemesis is quite a challenge in itself).

[Diogenes]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Nishven:

Those games introduced a way to weakened the player or empowered the challenges to counterbalance the power of the player (except Grim Dawn, but a Nemesis is quite a challenge in itself).

Well, in ARPG's, the player is supposed to get more powerful over time.

Honestly, I'll never understand players who play ARPG's, and then complain about things like power creep. It's like, wtf are they playing games from this genre for then?

If they don't get more powerful, then it makes the genre pointless.

[Nishven]

Absolutely. But it's not complaining about the power creep, more about the lack of challenge past a certain point. Players love being challenged, and doing more and more difficult challenges. Feeling powerful, not overpowered.

[RhodosGuard]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von rasabt:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Diogenes:

Urgh... But the AOE tree sucks, like most of the trees.

the aoe tree has a broken talent which lets you 1-hit-kill whole bosspacks...so dunno.

and i rather think it's hillarious that people realy want to nerf the one mob in the game where movement plays atleast some role.
even if you just start out: hit it from behind (after the initial charge), turnspeed doesn't matter, just keep moving and hitting...i'm an absolute failure of a gamer and i can do it.
all you need is some patience.
once you hit endgame you steamroll everything (yes tanks aswell) anyway.


and dear RhodosGuard name one, one singel game in this genre were things work different.
PoE nope, Grim Dawn/Titan Quest, nope, D2/D3 nope...i can't think of any game in the genre were balance isn't defined by player-skill-setup and gear...but pray tell what game do you have in mind?

In neither TQ or GD you will encounter mobs at level 5 that are impossible to beat at that level, beatable but still huge pains in higher levels, and dust in the wind when you go full exploit.
Maybe that's due to how the games are setup, but that's the truth.

Additionally, while some Skills and skillsets are abusable in either game, all the other builds can still properly play the game without being stranded on normal difficulty.

All those games work significantly different from this one:
They are not "mission based"
Skills are not bound to weapons.
Each unique item (epic and legendary) are actually quite unique rather than just having a single stat improving them and can synergize with a whole lot of different skills.


Both of those games are significantly more fine-tuned.
And neither misses the middle ground between outright broken and completely useless.
Sure some builds are either completely useless or outright broken but they are rare extremes rather than the whole set of builds even available. There are multiple builds that fit right inbetween. That dont one-hit everything but can clear. That aren't immortal but can survive all threads.
That have a clearspeed lower than an abused build but are not slowed down to a slugs pace because some enemies are overtuned.

I should name one? ALL OF THEM.

It's not about being defined by gear and skills. IT's about how viable each option is.
Maybe D3. Because Sets are basically forced onto you for you to be viable, but then again, Blizz is continously working on making set-less builds better.

In this game, it's not about player choice or player setup.
It's "Eat ♥♥♥♥ or die"
Play the broken build or dont enjoy the game.
The removed the middle ground I, and obviously quite some people, want to tread on.
I dont want to plow through missions in 3 minutes. But I also dont want to fail every mission there is.
I want a challenge without frustration and I want moments of success without them being meaningless.

On every build in this game, it's either.
You either have success, but it's meaningless or you have a challenge that is completely frustrating because some enemies have been set up to be specifically that.

If you don't see the point here, then dont even bother to respond and keep playing your immortal crusader or your one-hit-kill-everything psyker or your "My molten beam kills you within a milisecond"-Psyker.

Just dont try to lecture me on how this game is actually better than all the staple ARPGs that I have played and deemed 10x better than this pile of bugs.

[SneakyErvin]

No need to exploit the broken AoE tree to wipe out Russ and friends as a Psyker. Just build properly around Molten Beam and the Russ dies in 2 seconds or so at PLs above impossible i.e 400PL above you. At +250 you sneeze at them and they die with the same build.

[RhodosGuard]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von SneakyErvin:

No need to exploit the broken AoE tree to wipe out Russ and friends as a Psyker. Just build properly around Molten Beam and the Russ dies in 2 seconds or so at PLs above impossible i.e 400PL above you. At +250 you sneeze at them and they die with the same build.

But it's the same in green.
You just exchange exploiting a broken skill in the AoE tree with exploting stackable debuff runes on the beam with the debuff tree. Either way it removes the challenge from the game.

[Tinfoil]

Doesn't this all just suggest that crusaders should be buffed somewhat and mechanics looked at about just how op they are or aren't?

[SneakyErvin]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von ToraTora:

Doesn't this all just suggest that crusaders should be buffed somewhat and mechanics looked at about just how op they are or aren't?

Hopefully we'll see a buff to crusaders and assassins. More skill customization similar to the Psyker would solve it. The Psyker probably needs a nerf aswell because content isnt scaling well enough so you can push further to test your strengths. In the current static difficulty system they are completely overtuned in every area.

[Psojed]

At lower level, use stun grenades.

[-=Pliskin.es=-]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von RhodosGuard:

all

Quite brutal answers there, man. Totally agree with those

I need to add that any ARPG which aims to be successful should try to balance itself towards players playing a build they like, have a challenging and rewarding playtime, this is, fun, although my kind of fun looks like to be quite old fashioned.

The moment the player is literally forced to copy and use overpowered builds to progress, fun stops and the player will stop playing soon after, then it's the death of the game except for those who like playing overpowered broken builds while feeling important and elite for playing an unbalanced game thinking that it's just hard and they are the only chosen ones able to play it

BTW, this guy has a point

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QidBCKYVCMA

[Brother PaciFist]

Leman russ tanks need a tank commander opening his hatch and shouting: Drive me closer!

[rasabt]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von RhodosGuard:

In neither TQ or GD you will encounter mobs at level 5 that are impossible to beat at that level, beatable but still huge pains in higher levels, and dust in the wind when you go full exploit.
Maybe that's due to how the games are setup, but that's the truth.

mate don't talk to me about GD, i know you are in tantrum mode...but don't lecture me on GD ;(
if you can run to the broodmother in GD with your unfinished build and steamroll her a throne shall be build for you....if you can roflstomp every boss without putting any effort in your gear skills i commend you....nevermind things like the hidden path line.
and in GD, again as in any other hack'n slay, the purpose is to build your character in a way so that he can roflstomp everything.
my drain-essence spellbreaker was immortal from the very moment i could pick that skill...which is when? below lvl 5....and it's the same story with every build, there comes a breaking point where you are god.

and no neither in PoE, nor GD, nor D3 you can just pick what you like and expect to get all the content done...that's a lie and you know it Mr. Pliskin.


ofcourse about everything in Martyr need alot of polish, but there is something akin to "blowing out of proportion"
and some here show a pretty hillarious lack of understanding how this genre works.

[kknd]

Honestly The only change I feel the Leman Russ need is a slower rotation speed. I'm fine with everything else it does, but the complete inability to get behind it when I'm using two pistols on Crusader just makes the fight a raw numbers contest. Side step the plasma cannon and charge, hope you have the numbers/luck with crits to win the damage race because its not like it has weaker rear armor or anything.

[Alan]

As a crusader, you should be able to face tank any Leman Russ up to +250. Dunno about the other classes.

[kknd]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Alan:

As a crusader, you should be able to face tank any Leman Russ up to +250. Dunno about the other classes.

This does not reflect my experience in yellow missions. (because the event seems tuned to never give you anything but near max green to high yellow mission threat ratings reguardless of other factors) Though I suppose some of that is a simple lack of any more viable anti-tank weapon then a pair of bloody bolt pistols. (No, seriusly. I tried a plasma rilfe and it was slower at dropping armored targets then the basic left click shooting from the bolt pistol. The bolter itself is hardly any better but it's at least no worse. And no, I do not have Inferno/Melta/Grav weaponry avalible to me yet. If I had it, I would at least try it!)