Warhammer 40,000: Inquisitor - Martyr

Warhammer 40,000: Inquisitor - Martyr

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Mr. Matt Dec 4, 2017 @ 7:31pm
So Dragon Age: Origins' demon lore is basically a shameless ripoff of Chaos gods/demons from 40K, huh?
I had my mind blown by how cool the demon lore was in Dragon Age: Origins. Little intrigued me about the Dragon Age series except for that. Then one day, I start getting interested in 40K games, so I start Googling about Chaos, and within an hour, I was staring in shock at how deliberately Bioware stole 40K's Chaos gods/demons and made their own demon lore from it. I realize that most things in works of fiction have been done before, and things are tweaked and modified to make it "their own," but I think Bioware went too far.

Yes, I know what Blizzard did with StarCraft, but I still feel like there's some spark of creativity in Starcraft, and there are enough tiny little differences for me to not feel disgusted by it. Dragon Age, on the other hand? I don't think I can forgive this flagrant lore thievery.

Maybe I'm stirring up a hornet's nest. I don't know. I realize opinions are subjective, but what do you guys think about the Dragon Age demon lore versus the 40K Chaos god/demon lore?
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Showing 1-15 of 21 comments
Warnoise Dec 4, 2017 @ 8:37pm 
I am sorry i don't know much about Dragon Age origins lore, can you give us examples of similarities?
Mr. Matt Dec 4, 2017 @ 9:01pm 
Originally posted by Warnoise:
I am sorry i don't know much about Dragon Age origins lore, can you give us examples of similarities?

No problem. In Dragon Age, demons live in another realm/dimension. Everything is twisted, bizarre, changing form, etc. The demons have different themes...such as desire (i.e. lust), rage, sloth, pride, etc. These demons typically work against one another in their goals.

They can escape through rifts into the realm of mortals, and there are designated warriors to combat these demons should this happen. However, demons can also possess people. You see, mages can enter this other dimension (the "Fade") and demons can try to tempt them into allowing them to possess them, or overpowering them and doing it. A trial for a mage is to cross his or her mind over to the Fade and contront a demon, and get out without possession. If possessed, people are there to kill the mage because the possessed cannot be allowed to live.

Also, the possessed have their bodies twisted by the demon that possesses them. Here's an image of what they tend to look like in Dragon Age... https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonage/images/4/47/Creature-Abomination.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20091130200211

Fade = Warp
Psykers = Mages

The possessed look in Dragon Age look like some of the folks being twisted by Chaos/the Warp in 40K. I feel like I owe all of my adoration for the demon lore in Dragon Age to 40K (or Warhammer Fantasy, but I do prefer the sci-fi setting).
SnugSnug Dec 5, 2017 @ 8:32am 
I think one needs to look further back, to find where both bioware and 40k got their inspiration for their deamonology. Like all good IP, they borrow concepts from existing resources mix n match while covering the blanks with creativity, and then the IP itself evolves with time and additional writers and new external influences. I read an article/interview once from one of the original Wh40k design team stating along the lines that they'd drawn heavy influences from the Catholic Church when designing the Imperium of man and Ip as a whole, but how this had been lost misunderstood or intentionally changed in subsequent years.

Places to look are mainstream religions/spiritual beliefs and the folklore and cultures of the countries that support them. China, Japan, Korea, India, Tibet, Slavic etc. Europe.

Its not necessarilly they're pantheon, but how they express the system as a whole.
Eg Multiple overlapping realms of existence linked together and broadly encompassing and accommodating the actions of the whole while the placement of the individual is a temporary and transient based on the weight of their own actions.
Negative emotion and weakness of spirit can lead to possession by hungry entity whose presence gradually ghanges and ultimately destroys its host.
These are just passing concepts from two different cultures that could equally be used to describe aspects of WH40k.
Tarrot and Scrimshaw, reading of knuckle bones and general divination appears globally in many different systems. The 'Seven sins' are a core concept of Christianity, thought open to different interpretations depending on the actual denomination. Look at 'Lanterne of Light's' or 'Binsfield's' classical definitions for a correlation to Dragon Age.

I'd encourage anyone interested to research it for themselves... it's difficult to paraphrase and shorthand core concepts without risk of diluting and potentially misrepresenting.
Last edited by SnugSnug; Dec 5, 2017 @ 8:33am
Mr. Matt Dec 5, 2017 @ 9:06am 
Originally posted by SnugSnug:
I think one needs to look further back, to find where both bioware and 40k got their inspiration for their deamonology. Like all good IP, they borrow concepts from existing resources mix n match while covering the blanks with creativity, and then the IP itself evolves with time and additional writers and new external influences. I read an article/interview once from one of the original Wh40k design team stating along the lines that they'd drawn heavy influences from the Catholic Church when designing the Imperium of man and Ip as a whole, but how this had been lost misunderstood or intentionally changed in subsequent years.

Places to look are mainstream religions/spiritual beliefs and the folklore and cultures of the countries that support them. China, Japan, Korea, India, Tibet, Slavic etc. Europe.

Its not necessarilly they're pantheon, but how they express the system as a whole.
Eg Multiple overlapping realms of existence linked together and broadly encompassing and accommodating the actions of the whole while the placement of the individual is a temporary and transient based on the weight of their own actions.
Negative emotion and weakness of spirit can lead to possession by hungry entity whose presence gradually ghanges and ultimately destroys its host.
These are just passing concepts from two different cultures that could equally be used to describe aspects of WH40k.
Tarrot and Scrimshaw, reading of knuckle bones and general divination appears globally in many different systems. The 'Seven sins' are a core concept of Christianity, thought open to different interpretations depending on the actual denomination. Look at 'Lanterne of Light's' or 'Binsfield's' classical definitions for a correlation to Dragon Age.

I'd encourage anyone interested to research it for themselves... it's difficult to paraphrase and shorthand core concepts without risk of diluting and potentially misrepresenting.

Wow, that's pretty deep and insightful, thanks. That said, I think I would state that the Warhammer games were "inspired by" religion when they made their demonology, but that Dragon Age games were lazily almost copy/pasted in their demonology, right out of the Warhammer games.
SnugSnug Dec 5, 2017 @ 9:46am 
Perhaps, i don't know much about Dragon age, other than i enjoyed playing it a few years ago. although it felt more d&d/christian/olde-english mash-up if memory serves. Might have to re-install :steammocking:

Original concept for Chaos as seen in WH40k is/was a translation of Warhammer Fantasy Chaos which preceded it by a few years, this in turn was influenced by Micheal Moorcock's fictional litrature, whose concept of the multi-verse had a strong draw and shaped a fair bit of 80's early 90's worldbuilding not just WH40k.

Where M.M. got his ideas who's to know, but best guess would include classics Greek, Egyptian, English, Norse as interpreted by a non-religious physicist, such that he was.

The Horus Heresy is supposedly influenced by Paradise lost an old english poem based on Christian/political beliefs of its author. Although one could also see correlations to various historical/classical figures that the original designers would have come across during education of that time, classical English/Latin/Greek/History.

dv Dec 5, 2017 @ 2:24pm 
I encourage everyone to read Dante's Divine Comedy (i think thats the correct english translation). If he'd be still alive, he would be Black Librarys greatest author
Diogenes Dec 6, 2017 @ 9:51am 
Originally posted by @dv:
I encourage everyone to read Dante's Divine Comedy (i think thats the correct english translation). If he'd be still alive, he would be Black Librarys greatest author

Dante Alighieri?
Last edited by Diogenes; Dec 6, 2017 @ 9:52am
Maximum Sloth Dec 6, 2017 @ 7:19pm 
Originally posted by Diogenes:
Originally posted by @dv:
I encourage everyone to read Dante's Divine Comedy (i think thats the correct english translation). If he'd be still alive, he would be Black Librarys greatest author

Dante Alighieri?
Read Inferno and Purgatorio, not Paradiso.

Paradiso is boring.
Last edited by Maximum Sloth; Dec 6, 2017 @ 7:19pm
TheAntMan777 Dec 6, 2017 @ 8:27pm 
Originally posted by Mr. Matt:
I had my mind blown by how cool the demon lore was in Dragon Age: Origins. Little intrigued me about the Dragon Age series except for that. Then one day, I start getting interested in 40K games, so I start Googling about Chaos, and within an hour, I was staring in shock at how deliberately Bioware stole 40K's Chaos gods/demons and made their own demon lore from it. I realize that most things in works of fiction have been done before, and things are tweaked and modified to make it "their own," but I think Bioware went too far.

Yes, I know what Blizzard did with StarCraft, but I still feel like there's some spark of creativity in Starcraft, and there are enough tiny little differences for me to not feel disgusted by it. Dragon Age, on the other hand? I don't think I can forgive this flagrant lore thievery.

Maybe I'm stirring up a hornet's nest. I don't know. I realize opinions are subjective, but what do you guys think about the Dragon Age demon lore versus the 40K Chaos god/demon lore?

They are actually totally different when you look at the core differences. like the biggest one, The Fade and the Demons therein are created by the dreams of Mankind and their desires. The warp is a place of chaos and change and has always been there. There also is not a large connection to Desires and emotions in the beings of Chaos like there is in Dragon Age Demons. Also Dragon Age demons must have an existing link to the Fade to stay in our world, whereas Warhammer they dont need some rift or link, they just come on over and have fun. I do admit they have some similarities but being a fan well versed in the lore of both games I can say for sure they are different at root.
Mr. Matt Dec 6, 2017 @ 9:53pm 
Originally posted by Takuto:
Originally posted by Mr. Matt:
I had my mind blown by how cool the demon lore was in Dragon Age: Origins. Little intrigued me about the Dragon Age series except for that. Then one day, I start getting interested in 40K games, so I start Googling about Chaos, and within an hour, I was staring in shock at how deliberately Bioware stole 40K's Chaos gods/demons and made their own demon lore from it. I realize that most things in works of fiction have been done before, and things are tweaked and modified to make it "their own," but I think Bioware went too far.

Yes, I know what Blizzard did with StarCraft, but I still feel like there's some spark of creativity in Starcraft, and there are enough tiny little differences for me to not feel disgusted by it. Dragon Age, on the other hand? I don't think I can forgive this flagrant lore thievery.

Maybe I'm stirring up a hornet's nest. I don't know. I realize opinions are subjective, but what do you guys think about the Dragon Age demon lore versus the 40K Chaos god/demon lore?

They are actually totally different when you look at the core differences. like the biggest one, The Fade and the Demons therein are created by the dreams of Mankind and their desires. The warp is a place of chaos and change and has always been there. There also is not a large connection to Desires and emotions in the beings of Chaos like there is in Dragon Age Demons. Also Dragon Age demons must have an existing link to the Fade to stay in our world, whereas Warhammer they dont need some rift or link, they just come on over and have fun. I do admit they have some similarities but being a fan well versed in the lore of both games I can say for sure they are different at root.

I thought "the Maker" was rumored to have made the demons in DA, and they're jelly of the humans, so they use the dreams of humans to sculpt the Fade because demons 100% lack creativity as per the lore? I think the whole psyker/mage, Fade/Warp, the visual look of possessed humans, and the corralling of mages/psykers and killing them if they give in, etc. is just way too close to not shake my head at Dragon Age. I was so charmed by that part of the game, and it feels like they "borrowed" waaaay too much straight out of Warhammer with just a few noun changes and minor modifications so they wouldn't get sued.

I would argue that there are significant differences around the leaves in the metaphor, because the roots are almost identical. =p
Jean-Luc Dec 6, 2017 @ 10:23pm 
Yeah, they're pretty similar in essence. In both cases Chaos/Fade entities are given shape by mortal thoughts and actions. Those entities then try to cross into the mortal realm to empower themselves and get people to commit more of the acts that define and feed said entity. They become embodiments of mortal excess and weakness.

DA is more Christian themed and based on the Seven Deadly Sins (gluttony, lust, pride...) while WH Chaos is more general in concept (pleasure, change...).

In any case it doesn't bother me. I just wish DAI was a better game.
Last edited by Jean-Luc; Dec 6, 2017 @ 10:23pm
Crombir Dec 6, 2017 @ 10:57pm 
Originally posted by Takuto:
Originally posted by Mr. Matt:
I had my mind blown by how cool the demon lore was in Dragon Age: Origins. Little intrigued me about the Dragon Age series except for that. Then one day, I start getting interested in 40K games, so I start Googling about Chaos, and within an hour, I was staring in shock at how deliberately Bioware stole 40K's Chaos gods/demons and made their own demon lore from it. I realize that most things in works of fiction have been done before, and things are tweaked and modified to make it "their own," but I think Bioware went too far.

Yes, I know what Blizzard did with StarCraft, but I still feel like there's some spark of creativity in Starcraft, and there are enough tiny little differences for me to not feel disgusted by it. Dragon Age, on the other hand? I don't think I can forgive this flagrant lore thievery.

Maybe I'm stirring up a hornet's nest. I don't know. I realize opinions are subjective, but what do you guys think about the Dragon Age demon lore versus the 40K Chaos god/demon lore?

They are actually totally different when you look at the core differences. like the biggest one, The Fade and the Demons therein are created by the dreams of Mankind and their desires. The warp is a place of chaos and change and has always been there. There also is not a large connection to Desires and emotions in the beings of Chaos like there is in Dragon Age Demons. Also Dragon Age demons must have an existing link to the Fade to stay in our world, whereas Warhammer they dont need some rift or link, they just come on over and have fun. I do admit they have some similarities but being a fan well versed in the lore of both games I can say for sure they are different at root.

Sorry thats not right. In warhammer deamons need also a steady source of warpenergie. They just cant pop up and screw things up. When they dont have some source of warpenergie they disappear.
"There also is not a large connection to Desires and emotions in the beings of Chaos like there is in Dragon Age Demons"
Deamons in warhammer are basically emotions. Thats how the warp works. Emotion from the realspace are producing energie in the warp and this energie causes deamons. The deamons try to manipulate the creatures of the realspace to produce more energie.
Mad Poppins Dec 7, 2017 @ 12:48am 
Look when it comes to influences they all trace back to some nut, under the "influence" of something.
Incunabulum Dec 7, 2017 @ 4:57pm 
Originally posted by Mr. Matt:
y Bioware stole 40K's Chaos gods/demons and made their own demon lore from it.

Oh dear lord. Its not 40k's chaos either since they stole it from Warhammer. Who stole it from Moorcock. Hell, even the 8 pointed star comes from the Eternal Champion.

There's almost nothing original in 40k - its a pastiche of a dozen different previous sci-fi and fantasy IPs itself.

Originally posted by Mr. Matt:

Yes, I know what Blizzard did with StarCraft, but I still feel like there's some spark of creativity in Starcraft, and there are enough tiny little differences for me to not feel disgusted by it. Dragon Age, on the other hand? I don't think I can forgive this flagrant lore thievery.

No, I don't think you do. Starcraft is a completely original (or, at least as original as 40k since it takes ideas from many of the same IP 40k did) IP that has no relation to 40k. It was *WARCRAFT* that started life as a WFB game and then became its own thing when using the WFB IP didn't work.
Last edited by Incunabulum; Dec 7, 2017 @ 5:01pm
Mr. Matt Dec 7, 2017 @ 5:44pm 
Originally posted by Incunabulum:
Originally posted by Mr. Matt:
y Bioware stole 40K's Chaos gods/demons and made their own demon lore from it.

Oh dear lord. Its not 40k's chaos either since they stole it from Warhammer. Who stole it from Moorcock. Hell, even the 8 pointed star comes from the Eternal Champion.

There's almost nothing original in 40k - its a pastiche of a dozen different previous sci-fi and fantasy IPs itself.

Originally posted by Mr. Matt:

Yes, I know what Blizzard did with StarCraft, but I still feel like there's some spark of creativity in Starcraft, and there are enough tiny little differences for me to not feel disgusted by it. Dragon Age, on the other hand? I don't think I can forgive this flagrant lore thievery.

No, I don't think you do. Starcraft is a completely original (or, at least as original as 40k since it takes ideas from many of the same IP 40k did) IP that has no relation to 40k. It was *WARCRAFT* that started life as a WFB game and then became its own thing when using the WFB IP didn't work.

I should've just said "Warhammer" instead of "40K," my apologies. As for Starcraft, I like the setting and really like the characters and story, but the zerg are clearly using the tyranids as more than inspiration. To call Starcraft completely original compared to 40K is disingenuous, given the number of things Starcraft directly takes from 40K. 40K may "borrow" elements from other stuff, but it's generally a wealth of other sources. Starcraft is taking big chunks of stuff from 40K. Terrans, Zerg, and Protoss are pretty easy shoe-ins for Imperium, Tyranids, and Eldar (or possibly Tau, to some extent). The "infested" people are reminiscent of Chaos enemies as well.
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Date Posted: Dec 4, 2017 @ 7:31pm
Posts: 21