How do usable items work?

[Kiru]

Having played a lot of Atelier games, this one seems to add a new mechanic, that it obviously doesn't explain: Using the same item repeatedly lowers their power. I only really tested this with damage items so far, but I don't see a reason why this would be different for anything else:

Basically it seems like every time you use an item type (i.e. bomb, ice bomb, puni rocket..), the damage gets cut in half, for example:
use1 : 250dmg
use2: 125dmg
use3: 62dmg

And so on. It also seems like a tier gets recovered after a turn at some point, but I only observed this when the item in question didn't deal any damage anymore anyway. (as in 1/8 of its normal output, so after a turn it'd still do 1/8, though using it twice in said turn would correctly lower it even more..) Using a different item on turn 2 and then the one from turn 1 again does not help this either, the damage gets halfed.


So, anyone know what exactly is happening and how this works? Because as it is, it seems like usuable items are insanely bad. There aren't even that many different items you can use, nor are there enough slots. Can you recover the original strength within battle by using enough different items? If so how many?
I'm really confused by this change. And I'm even more confused that I've not found anything regarding this online. All people seem to wonder about is min-max damage vs attack.

[cadfan17]

I've not experienced that at all.

Do your items have any descriptors that might be relevant? Like maybe a bonus based on the items "count," which naturally drops as you use the item?

Are you only testing on one enemy, who might have a resistance boost after getting hit with typed damage?

[Okamiroy]

That's the system. If your difficulty is NORMAL (or HARD?) or higher, there will be an bomb resistance when you use same bomb repeatly. And as your test result, damage gets half per once more.

This is used to limit something, such as Lightning Crystal which can push foes' time card to almost the bottom.

I forget if this only does effect to boss, or to all the monsters.

[Kiru]

Oh so it's a difficulty thing. Well, this is on despair, so I guess that's fair enough? Still doesn't change that that makes items really bad. You can basically not rely on items for anything against strong enemies. (it also applies for weak ones, but one item use is probably enough there anyway)

I mean stuff I can beat and is strong right now has like 4k HP, so my best items dealing 200-300 damage aren't even that OP, especially as not everyone can use them anyway. (only 2 characters can) As it stands, I can basically use them once, and then need to use attacks and skills which don't get nerved. Meaning equipment is way more important than items now, which should really not be the case.
Oh well, even Gust makes some really weird decisions once in a while.

Btw, Lightning Crystal is limited no matter what. The effect with push-back has diminishing results. Damage however normally should not. And it's not really that good in Sophie anyway. Everyone gets one turn per "turn" anyway. When that wasn't the case yet, push-back was WAY more powerful and needed this as otherwise you could delay an enemy forever and have them never get a turn. Worst case for the enemy in Sophie would be having their actions at the end of the turn.

p.s.:

Originally posted by cadfan17:

Are you only testing on one enemy, who might have a resistance boost after getting hit with typed damage?

It happens with ALL items regardless of enemy, traits or effects. But seeing how it seems to be a difficulty thing, you may just not play on a high enough one for that to happen.

[cadfan17]

I'm on despair. I just never noticed because I use attack items for their effects, not their numerical damage. So I never spam them on the same target. I rotate through them to impose all of the effects they offer, especially focusing on level downs and damage downs.

I thought you were doing the same thing, but getting different damage values in different fights. So I wondered if you had some count attributes at issue. I've never really experimented with those.

But it seems like this is resolved.

[Kiru]

The question here is if it's really just damage that gets effected or everything. If everything, then any "re-apply" of anything would have a lower chance or effect as well.
Well, for now I'll assume it's only damage, until I see something suspicious.

[Okamiroy]

I take Lightning Crystal as an exsample not to say the damage cut, but the pushing effect will also be cut. Damage is resisted among the same bomb, but the effect is resisted among everything which has the same effect. For exsample, you use bomb A pushing foes the first turn , then in the second turn, no matter you use bomb A again or use another bomb B with pushing effect, the effect will be cut. Only few effects can ignore the resistance.

Well, let's back to the bomb damage. In Atelier Sophie, bomb seems not that powerful because of its low damage. This 'is not wrong. So the conclusion is that effect is more valueable than damage here, such as the pushing effect.

And actually, though bomb damage is not powerful, but can still be enhanced to a nice level.
This is my guide of 'One-Turn-KO DLC Boss'
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=873488096
I adjust everyone's equipment and traits there, so Harol can deal about 4k damage with an Ori Bomb. Compare to others, this damage is low, but enough.

[Kiru]

The difference is just, that the lightning push-back is an effect (.. or trait?) that mentions this very thing. It's also a standard in the Atelier series too.
The fact that damage is reduced by repeated use however is something never mentioned anywhere. It's also completely different, as the push-back reduction is (usually) only reduced until the enemy gets a turn, after which it's at full power again. Don't know how it's handled in Sophie though, as enemies get an action per turn anyway.

I'll probably be looking a bit more into this, but so far it seems like this makes usable items bad for damage and someone like Corneria a pretty bad character, as her character is based around using items and increasing their damage. A very weird design decision by Gust. Especially as item damage at 100% isn't even that powerful, as you say. With the further nerf, I'll probably end up making a party only relying on buffs/debuffs and heals, with completely ignoring any damage item. Which makes me sad, but what can you do.

[Okamiroy]

@Kiru
It's also completely different, as the push-back reduction is (usually) only reduced until the enemy gets a turn
Yes, it is.

Buffs here is not that powerful because we have an LP bonus. When LP>=90%, ATK,DEF,SPD +50% in battle, and the stats have a limit of 999. Charactrers stats in Atelier Sophie is easy to reach 666 or more(though it's no need usually). This makes buff a waste.

About bomb damage reduction, well, it's true there's nothing mentioned by GUST in the game, and I don't know why. This also happens in a18 Atelier Firis, and also no hints, but bombs there are a bit more powerful and useful, which can be expected to make a more intresting fight.

[Tiasmoon]

Aha, so thats what activates the combat buff. What exactly even costs LP in this game tho, apart from map movement? I'm not sure if I've ever been below 90% after I got the maxed out feather.

To be fair about bombs lacking power, the combat system is a lot more flashier and interesting so it makes up for it (compared to totori or meruru) imo.

[Kiru]

In older games there were attacks that lower them later on. I've yet to encounter that in Sophie, but without that it'd be really a useless stat.