Is the fluid system really worth it?

[Ryusko]

It seems like a waste to have so much cycle time and so much jank dedicated to trying to model fluid movement for... what? It looking kind of neat 'flowing' through the pipes? I would love this game so much more if the system was dramatically simplified, and just checked input rate output rate and height.

Here's the incredibly elaborate setup that is breaking the fluid system: I have 5 plastic refineries and 5 rubber factories which generate 150m3/minute of residual heavy oil. It needs to get to 3 refineries making residual fuel, which have a capacity of 180m3/minute of heavy oil. No matter what is done, some of the plastic and rubber factories back up because their fluid output gets full. Here's what I've done to try to fix it:

-Adding pumps to ensure headlift. These Refineries on the same level, but whatever, why not. Does not help.
-Adding a 'bump' over a wall, to make sure the fluid is higher at some point than the machines they're feeding. That's kind of neat, it's like a water tower. Does not help.
-Adding fluid buffers at a variety of points throughout the system. Does not help.
-Adding non return valves at a variety of points, with a variety of fluid throttling. Does not help.
-Moving the fuel refineries to a lower floor in the factory. Does not help.
-Making the pipes a loop instead of a line. Does not help.
-Priming the system first, so all of the pipes and all of the machines and all the buffers are 100% full first. Does not work.
-Just tear out all the pipes and build them again. Does not work.
-Waiting an hour for the whopping 13 machines on this elaborate straight line to manifold. Does not work.
-Underclocking the fuel refineries to use exactly 150/min. Does not work.
-Overclocking the plastic/rubber to produce exactly 180/min. Does not work.
-Removing refineries so the pipes are always full and at 'full' pressure. Does not work.
-Adding 10 more of each refinery to produce 300/min for a perfectly full pipe. Does not work.

Any or all of these do not stop the plastic/rubber machines from getting backed up, the fuel refineries being nearly empty, and the flow rate of the pipes between them average to 50m3/minute. Having to do any of this in the first place is a little bit tedious. Spending three hours trying combinations of all of them to simply move outputs for 10 machines over to 3 machines right next to them and it still failing is incredibly frustrating. Can't post screenshots because I'm playing from Epic, so discount me out of hand if you want, but running a single pipe between two basic recipes on a flat plain shouldn't warrant this level of troubleshooting anyway.

I understand that it's working fine for you. I understand that you're certain you have a trick that works. I understand that you're sure I just don't have enough headlift somewhere.

The fluid system is an overly designed failure of a vanity project.

[kLuns]

Fluids Suck
Packagers Rule
COMPLY

[NocheLuz]

I don't really do anything elaborate with my system. I also have 5 plastic + 5 rubber Refinery and have 150 m3 Heavy Oil. However, I only connect them in series.

At first, I connected them to 3 Refinery making Petroleum Coke and sank them. Not even one issue. After I got the Diluted Packaged Fuel, I deleted the Petroleum Coke and connected them to the Refinery making Packaged Fuel. Still no issue. They work perfectly making 300 m3 Fuel per minute, powering my 15 Fuel Generators.

I think you should try to Flush the whole system. It might help with the pipe issue. But if you still have an issue, try putting in a valve between the Refinery that has an issue and the next one. So it'll prevent the Heavy Oil from getting back to the Refinery thus, backing up the Refinery.

[Acecool]

I have multiple systems using 600 m^3 in mk2 tubes and functioning 100% of the time.

All I do is come off the oil, water, whatever it is and go up 2 4m walls in vertical mode, back down the other side, then into a buffer. I add a valve before the buffer and done.

As long as you don't elevate the pipes above the initial bump, you are good.

Currently designing this:
https://steamcommunity.com/id/Acecool/screenshot/2477632689723700662/

Unslooped 2400 rocket fuel per minute off of 2* normal nodes overclocked with alternative recipes. I'm going to sloop it so I'll need 4 packages per pipeline.

Combining water: https://steamcommunity.com/id/Acecool/screenshot/2477632689723700366/ - works just fine on other systems.

Another shot from above - https://steamcommunity.com/id/Acecool/screenshot/2477632689723699806/ 3x water clocked to 200 each ( slightly less power than 2 at 300 but I can easily overclock 2 and shut 1 off without changing anything )

Crude oil to heavy whatever its called. I was originally going to run the water through that channel but went a different route so it is a walkway.
https://steamcommunity.com/id/Acecool/screenshot/2477632689723699507/

2 normal nodes - combined for 600 m^3 / minute: https://steamcommunity.com/id/Acecool/screenshot/2477632689723699176/



Here is a pure node at 600 m^3 going into 4 refineries using 150 each producing 100 fuel on standard recipes: https://steamcommunity.com/id/Acecool/screenshot/2479883856039447769/

Running 24/7 it hasn't shutdown yet, and it is fully balanced.

Fuel generators connected together, then + joint in middle, run down the line into the buffer
https://steamcommunity.com/id/Acecool/screenshot/2479883856039439673/

other angle: https://steamcommunity.com/id/Acecool/screenshot/2479883856039439514/

the bump from the refineries: https://steamcommunity.com/id/Acecool/screenshot/2479883856039439328/ All connected under catwalk on right going into fluid buffer. On left each one is separate, does the bump and goes into the pipeline.



So if you are setting your pump to produce 300m^3 per minute, and you are only using 60 per minute, that pump will start and stop. When it stops, it will be idle for x amount of time based on if it has drained enough and possibly a delay.

That can cause your factory to go down. Balance the load, do the bump, prime all pipes and buffers first, prime your factories, etc.. then run it. It shouldn't ever go down if you are producing exactly what it needs if you do what I showed.

[Bedna]

I am actively trying to make one of my water pipes bug out like I keep reading online. Making it go up/down, building without foundations, multiple intersections everywhere, multiple pumps (water pumps, I do not need the head lift) and pipes in all directions. And no matter what I do, I simply can not manage to get it weird.
I see the "slushing" in some pipes, but as soon as the system catches up (because machines are not consuming) with more water in the pipes, my machines never stop even if the pipe connected directly to them have almost no water in them.
I even use some overflow water back into the system, and as long as I calculate that, removing that input from my water pumps, zero problems.
No valves needed or anything.

All I do is build however I want, making sure the headlift is not exceeded AND make sure I input the exact amount I take out.

To find out if headlift is a problem, click on the pipes along the way, if there is one pipe that NEVER gets filled completely but stays at a certain level, it is because the headlift is too high and an extra pump is needed. And that pump has to be placed BELOW the headlift of the last machine or the fluid inside will not reach the pump for it to be able to add its own headlift.

In 99% of the cases I read online, it ends up being a headlift problem somewhere OR the user is missing that t1 pipes have max flow of 300/s.
Are you absolutely sure you placed your pumps so the liquid can actually reach the bottom of the pump for the extra headlift?
I don't see you mention what tier of pipes you use, a t1 pipe will not work here, 150x3 and 180x3 both exceed the max flow of 300/s, you need t2 pipes.
If you are using t2 pipes, are you absolutely sure there is not a tiny segment of t1 pipe that bottlenecks the t2 pipes somewhere?

[Dwane Dibbley]

Its better than pipes being just reskined belts.

I dont try to minmax 100% eff fluids and i dont have any problems.

[Bedna]

Originally posted by Dwane Dibbley:

Its better than pipes being just reskined belts.

I dont try to minmax 100% eff fluids and i dont have any problems.

It's not about min/maxing, it's about balance.
When a producer stops because of the output pipe being full, it will stay shut off for a while.
That behavior is something you want to get rid of or it can be the CAUSE of problems.
And it's not very hard.
Consumer1+consumer2+consumer3=producer1+producer2 (or however your setup is).
Not very complicated math.

[Dwane Dibbley]

Originally posted by Bedna:

Originally posted by Dwane Dibbley:

Its better than pipes being just reskined belts.

I dont try to minmax 100% eff fluids and i dont have any problems.

It's not about min/maxing, it's about balance.
When a producer stops because of the output pipe being full, it will stay shut off for a while.
That behavior is something you want to get rid of or it can be the CAUSE of problems.
And it's not very hard.
Consumer1+consumer2+consumer3=producer1+producer2 (or however your setup is).
Not very complicated math.

If thats your problem, use buffers or design with reserves.

Not very complicated.

[Morsk]

Originally posted by Acecool:

So if you are setting your pump to produce 300m^3 per minute, and you are only using 60 per minute, that pump will start and stop. When it stops, it will be idle for x amount of time based on if it has drained enough and possibly a delay.

Miners also start and stop this way, and it's harmless. Is it worse on pipes because the direction of flow can reverse?

[Shadow]

Had a similar issue with my aluminum factory earlier today. Pretty sure the issue is the recycled water sloshing in the pipe where it connects back into the main feed pipe. I had put a valve in to prevent that, but it was still backing up the line.

Moved the valve a bit so that at least one refinery was only getting recycled water and flushed the network. That seems to have taken care of things for now, but I still need to figure out how I want to set up some sort of failsafe to sink any excess water, just in case it gets backed up again. There's no limestone nearby, so wet concrete would require shipping in limestone. I could just bottle it, but that would also require bringing in plastic from somewhere.

I suppose another option is to have the train that's bringing in the copper and silica take it away and drop it off somewhere it can be processed into something that can be sunk. Could even drop it off at either the quartz or copper mines, since both have sinkable recipes that can be used.

Come to think of it, maybe that could solve the OP's issue as well. One extra refinery making petroleum coke or something, with an upside down U bend on the input pipe so that the rest of the network is prioritized first. The basic idea is that only excess residue gets dumped into that extra refinery, which processes it into sinkable material whenever it happens to have enough.

[Bedna]

Originally posted by Dwane Dibbley:

Originally posted by Bedna:

It's not about min/maxing, it's about balance.
When a producer stops because of the output pipe being full, it will stay shut off for a while.
That behavior is something you want to get rid of or it can be the CAUSE of problems.
And it's not very hard.
Consumer1+consumer2+consumer3=producer1+producer2 (or however your setup is).
Not very complicated math.

If thats your problem, use buffers or design with reserves.

Not very complicated.

No, that is exactly what I do NOT have to do. I never use buffers, the pipes themselves act as a buffer.
Your comment kinda shows you do not understand the mechanics... xD

Originally posted by Morsk:

Originally posted by Acecool:

So if you are setting your pump to produce 300m^3 per minute, and you are only using 60 per minute, that pump will start and stop. When it stops, it will be idle for x amount of time based on if it has drained enough and possibly a delay.

Miners also start and stop this way, and it's harmless. Is it worse on pipes because the direction of flow can reverse?

Exactly, slushing...

[NocheLuz]

Originally posted by Shadow:

Come to think of it, maybe that could solve the OP's issue as well. One extra refinery making petroleum coke or something, with an upside down U bend on the input pipe so that the rest of the network is prioritized first. The basic idea is that only excess residue gets dumped into that extra refinery, which processes it into sinkable material whenever it happens to have enough.

Yeah, I think putting one more (or moving) Refinery beside the one that has a problem and connecting them in a series should at least solve some issues. If the one that has a problem moves from the usual one, it just means your calculation is off somewhere. You should check all the ratios again.

[Lawn-Mower]

Originally posted by kLuns:

Fluids Suck
Packagers Rule
COMPLY

ROFL
Can't believe that didn't occur to me before spending days to crack fluids.

[Lawn-Mower]

OP: KISS - the more eleborate your system the more prone to failure it will be.

If you have to have all those 'vanity' bits, hide your actual logistics and show some fake pipes with those fancy pieces. If you must have it functional for the vanity, then run a fake system through it, eventually burning or packaging whatever and sink the reset.

But for the actual factory - is vanity more important than function?

[Green Cat]

Also trains.

If you actually do want to have full control of fluid and are willing to build a train set up:

At end of "waste output" have a train collect it. Put a timer since if you wait till it's full you'll risk a bottle neck if using more then 1 train OR delays.

Aka periodically a train collect what's in the "waste station". Even if it's water. And the next station will be: A water station (or whatever it is you are working on), aka to top the train up. Then said train goes where said liquid it's needed. And then start again.

This is useful where where you need water (or whatever it is) and you also get said fluid as a waste and are supposed to use valves

And for anyone who doesn't understand why I am doing a A - B - C instead of just dropping it off somewhere and return (A - B), that's because there is no guarantee said "deposit" station is free. Or maybe even in use. Or who know, I want to redesign and want to move it. This train set up, ensures I do a full recycling that never get's interrupted or otherwise. And sure, you can do it via trucks if you add fulling the trucks, packing and unpacking... yeah, I thing I made it clear why I prefer to lay some tracks and call it a day

[JimboTCB]

Full pipes don't slosh. Letting things buffer up properly will solve 99% of fluid issues, it's just that long pipe runs take a long time to fill up.