Signals need work

[Hanover]

I have a ton of train games, but this is the only one where I fight with the signals all of the time. If it can detect a problem, show me where it is. I delete the one with the flashing triangle and the one directly behind it starts flashing until I've pretty much removed them all. I always end up deleting them all and starting over again.

[Sasheria]

I say it is display lag because I am running 20+ trains and it is working.

The display is for "human" to understand, but the underlying code works for the train.

Like I said, I give you partial credit for the human understanding/logic vs train usage.

The train goes from A to B (with other trains around) and not crash to each other which means the signal works.

Now if you want the display to "work" properly, that is a different conversation, but the path signals for trains IS working because the trains are not crashing.

Now, there is a known bug with multi-tracks that gets a little squirly (switching from left,right,front) that may cause crash, but that is track issue, not signal issue.

[RadioIesbian Fluid]

Publicado originalmente por Bobucles:

So, trains exhibit different behaviors than what the pathing display tells them to do. That's a bug. That's 100% a bug.

But they dont...
Just cause the green signal doesnt show until a train is inside the previous block doesnt mean they're bugged.
The train behaviour is exaktly what the signal tells it. Its just that the signal doesnt communicate across multiple blocks, it only communicates per block. So once a train enters the block, it reserves the path to the next block signal after the path signal.

It can't show a green signal always cause that would mean it reserved all paths thru the intersection and then it would just be a block signal.

[Eiko]

Publicado originalmente por RadioIesbian Fluid:

Publicado originalmente por Bobucles:

So, trains exhibit different behaviors than what the pathing display tells them to do. That's a bug. That's 100% a bug.

But they dont...
Just cause the green signal doesnt show until a train is inside the previous block doesnt mean they're bugged.
The train behaviour is exaktly what the signal tells it. Its just that the signal doesnt communicate across multiple blocks, it only communicates per block. So once a train enters the block, it reserves the path to the next block signal after the path signal.

It can't show a green signal always cause that would mean it reserved all paths thru the intersection and then it would just be a block signal.

This. It's not a bug. The train has to request a path from the signal before the signal will approve a path (which should be obvious). Trains will only request a path when they enter the block before the signal. That's not a bug, it's how the system is designed. It works exactly how it's supposed to, you just have to learn how it works. Now THAT is a problem because the game doesn't help you learn it. But don't call it a bug.

[mackster]

I still think that there is some confusion about path signals versus block systems.

A block signal starts a block of track which is terminated by a block signal further down the line. This means that if any train is within that 'block' - again, in between two block signals - the block signal will be red and not allow any other train to enter until the train in the said block moves through the terminating signal.

A block signal will never let more than one train into a block.

In some instances, especially at complex junctions (where tracks cross each other), a block on all entrances and exits will only allow one train at a time within that junction being protected by the blocking signals. Though there are some junctions that if two trains enter going in different directions, would never meet each other if no blocks are present (they would never cross and crash). If you have a situation like this, then use path signals instead of block signals, though note that every entrance to that junction MUST be a path signal.

This is the only time you need a path signal. Don't use them on straight tracks or those non-complex junctions where every train entering a junction will crash regardless of direction of travel. Just use blocking signals. A path signal is treated as a block signal from a train if its path would take it through the same path as another train coming from a different direction. However, if a train is in the block but the trains path doesn't share the same rail at all in the junction, then the path signal will allow the train to enter the junction, even if a train is within it.

Signalling isn't broke or bugged if you follow these rules. All my trains are absolutely fine. If all else fails, just use blocking signals for complex junctions as well - the only cost is some trains may have to wait until the junction is clear.

[Hanover]

Publicado originalmente por Bobucles:

Block signals.
Green = Open, can go
Red = In use, do not go.

Path Signals
Red = not in use
green = in use

It doesn't need a better tutorial. It needs to be a better system.
red = not in use is objectively bad design. It is equivalent to saying
red = all clear.

So now you have

Block signal, red = stop
Path signal, red = go

What is this jankery? Red is a STOP signal. You do not STOP signal on an all clear.
Oh don't forget that red also means not clear. It means two completely opposite behaviors for the same light.

green = in use

How does this help?
Path signals are for deciding paths. It is not a decision if the light only signals green after the train gets into the middle of tangled rail. What is the next train supposed to do? The light is red. It was red before its path was clear. It was red after the path was blocked. Does the train go, or does it not go?

The behavior exists under the hood, but it never goes to display. Path signals are indefensible. It is obviously bad from the very first time and every other time a path signal gets used. How did you guys even allow this broken behavior to go to 1.0?

^^^ He's right. In old-timey signals, you'd have a small gate on the side that would lower, and sometimes even a bell when you were supposed to stop. Imagine if that bell kept ringing and the gate stayed down all of the time. I think this game should follow the same rules as any other games that feature realistic train lines. Some of us come here already knowing the train language and it can be confusing.

[Eiko]

Publicado originalmente por Hanover:

In old-timey signals, you'd have a small gate on the side that would lower, and sometimes even a bell when you were supposed to stop. Imagine if that bell kept ringing and the gate stayed down all of the time. I think this game should follow the same rules as any other games that feature realistic train lines. Some of us come here already knowing the train language and it can be confusing.

Right but old timey steam engines didn't have AIs driving them. Path signals aren't for human engineers/drivers to read. They're there for the AIs in the self-driving trains to talk to. I think of the fact that they just show a red light most the time as being kind of a failsafe like "Hey, you're a human, so you're never allowed to drive a train into this block. It's for AIs only."

[Crunchy[Daz]]

Its okay to just admit you don't get something or understand it. You don't get how the signals work, thats fine. They aren't the easiest thing to understand but they aren't the hardest either.

If you're gonna put the time in to argue about it, might as well just watch a 5 minute youtube tutorial that will explain clearly how they are working with examples showing common mistakes as well.

[grab these bandages]

Signals are very simple thing to understand. Imagine its like traffic light but for trains and trains instead of peoples and cars.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3353687950

[Sasheria]

Publicado originalmente por grab these bandages:

Signals are very simple thing to understand. Imagine its like traffic light but for trains and trains instead of peoples and cars.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3353687950

True true, but I believe the OP (this is my assumption but I can be wrong)

The issue is that human perceived that green = go (traffic) and red = stop, but we try to explain that block signal (green = go, red =no go) is straight forward, but path signal is what confusing the OP.

Red = available, green = in use which different from typical go/go no.

[Hanover]

Nah, (I'm the OP) ...the problem is that I didn't realize it would treat a two-way line (one rail with two stations) like a loop. I couldn't figure out why I was suddenly getting flashing triangles with every other signal I placed. I think I was mistakenly placing block signals on shared lines when I needed to use a path signal. i get it now...but I will still recommend to be careful with large networks. You might end up having to walk far to get to the problem that's affecting your rail system on the other side of the map.

I think I might have a better way to explain Path signals..l'll write it up soon. I do think that the UI should do a better way of managing them.

[shoopy]

You really shouldn't have any signals on a two way single rail because it will deadlock any trains that use it.

And yes, signals are directional. They only apply to the direction where you can see the red/green light from. If it's on a two way single rail the opposite direction is completely unsignalled, leaving a train free to enter the other direction which creates the loop, so you need to make a signal for the other direction for the block to be valid. But this would also allow trains to meet head on and get stuck.

If you have two rails that are one way opposite directions, a signal will have a do not enter symbol on the reverse side which will stop trans from going the wrong way. You can use this to split a Y into different directions, or to stop trains from going where you don't want them to in general.

[grobyc87gbs]

In my opinion, the game needs a rail and signal map, where I can see and set all signals.

At the moment when I set a Signal and it seems ok, I set another signal far away from the last signal, and then I got problems. But I don't see the last signal state.
So I have to run a looong way return to check if it is ok or not.
This is a very frustrating way to find out what was wrong.

Nobody in real world drive hundreds of km to check a train signal. No, they have a map.

A map will made that much more easier.

And sometimes the train says "signal problem", but the signal is green. So I have to drive it manually, and activate the autopilote later, and then it works fine. So this seems a little bit buggy and has to be reworked in my eyes.

[spam]

It looks to me that path signals work OK, but the feedback we get when setting up signals is of poor quality which makes troubleshooting more painful than necessary.

[RadioIesbian Fluid]

Ingame tooltips for them are lacking somewhat, but it was enough to try figure them out. I started using them when i saw 4 trains locked in an intersection with only block signals where one train blocked the exit for another and that other train was occupying the block the first train tried to enter.
Instead of rebuilding it to be larger, i tried placing path signals and the trains just started rolling out and intersection cleared itself. It was so very obvious how they worked when i watched the intersection for a few minutes after.

Honestly for me reading all the threads complaining about train signals. I generally get the impression people are more interested in complaining they don't work like another game instead of trying to figure out how they work here.

[Porked!]

Maybe just the display part that could be improved. A grey square or something for path signal to indicate that it's idle and is taking a martini break would be nice instead of lumping it with no-go icon.