Realistic factory accessibility

[Jeff]

Of the dozens of co-ops and other player's games I have visited I've seen some highly unrealistic building setups. Like the walkways for example:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2951430997

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2951431064

The game allows you to do this, but you would never see anything like this is real life. It should be at least be believable. Here is an example of how I set up walkways and stairs for factory accessibility:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2951431276

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2951431316

Another thing I see are pipes on the ground with no way to get to the other side of them. you can't jump over them and unless you have a hover pack or mod, you can't fly over them. Most of my piping are well supported overhead or I construct stairs and walkway (bridges) to get over those on the ground.

When I see someone place belts on the ground I ask them to walk to where I am standing (one one side of the belt). Then I tell them, "Without jumping, walk straight to the other side of the belt." They say that it would be impossible. I don't want to spend all day jumping over my belts so none of them are on the ground. There's so much room in my factories, I can drive through them.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2655842629

[Wolfgang]

Publicado originalmente por NIkoli Voldkif:

Publicado originalmente por Khirareq:

Why? And what style of game is this?

Because a main part of the core game is logistics which is moving stuff between locations dealing with whats in between, If I you can just build freely above the map then at a certain point the map becomes irrelevant as does the logistics. Building above, or in some modded cases fully below the map, effectively just turns this game into a spreadsheet and math. The act of building your factory around and into the map is part of the whole game.

Publicado originalmente por Wolfgang:

Supports would make it much harder to start your building as you would constantly need to support it all the time and can not just make the building first and the supports once you finished the building.
This doesn't even include building factories over the void as making support there is kinda impossible (supporting a structure over a bottomless pit doesn't really work that well when the pit is pretty large).

Yes, it would make it more difficult, but not impossible. You don't need a full support physics engine. it could simply be a calculation of it counts as supported if it is X foundation/wall/ etc... from a vertical line of support to the ground.

Also the very fact that we can basically flippantly just say, "build over the massive bottomless pit with a few foundations and then ignore it" is kinda of a problem with the base game. At that point you have to ask, why do we even have a map? Building a bridge over the void should be something that is extremely difficult or at least take some effort.

Ok, let's imagine they add that to the game. What would it do for the core gameplay loop?
Actually nothing aside from also making the machines, belts, pipes be affected by that (floating stuff is in that case bad because reasons). Which is a ton of work that is extremely unlikely to happen at the stage where the game currently is. In fact it would actually encourage players to build on the ground without anything because that won't break. Making a shell around your factory is not needed for it to function. If they wanted to build off the ground they would just make a solid box of foundations up and build on that. Also not something that encourages building a shell around it.
In sum it would make the gameplay just more tedious. Right now, you can choose between not building with support or building with support. Taking away choices is generally not a good way to make a game better.

[Nikoli Voldkif]

Publicado originalmente por Wolfgang:

Ok, let's imagine they add that to the game. What would it do for the core gameplay loop?
Actually nothing aside from also making the machines, belts, pipes be affected by that (floating stuff is in that case bad because reasons). Which is a ton of work that is extremely unlikely to happen at the stage where the game currently is. In fact it would actually encourage players to build on the ground without anything because that won't break. Making a shell around your factory is not needed for it to function. If they wanted to build off the ground they would just make a solid box of foundations up and build on that. Also not something that encourages building a shell around it.
In sum it would make the gameplay just more tedious. Right now, you can choose between not building with support or building with support. Taking away choices is generally not a good way to make a game better.

Floating stuff is not just bad because of reasons. What is the core game design. Well the base is that you are sent to a planet to explore and build up a factory on the world to exploit the resources while navigating the obstacles on the planet. If you can simply start, build 50 4m foundations in the air and a ramp up, then ignore the planet for everything besides going down to upgrade miners. again why have the map in the first place? Now do I care if people want to mod the game to be able to do that or build below the map, not really. But part of game design is to put challenges for the players to overcome.

So yes, taking away choices is not only often good, but is required in game design. I'm playing a fps railroad game right now waiting on update 8 for satisfactory. I can't just build tracks through the sky without support in that game. In that game it's done through height limits by the various bridge and rail types. Guess what it makes the game MORE fun, because with out it the game is kinda dumb.

I mean why should we even have nodes spread across the map it only makes people have to build long belts/pipe/truck/train routes? I mean that is a main reason for the game. But why shouldn't players just be able to spawn everything right where they want it in whatever amount they want. Why should the game developers restrict my choice to do that? yeah, because it kinda of makes the game they are designing stupid.

As for building a shell, lets be honest there is no reason for that now outside of lag reduction, and it's actually something that I really wouldn't mind if it was changed but it would require a whole machine breakdown system for uncovered equipment that isn't considered weather protected.

[curtyuiop]

Hilarious award, yet not given. edit: given as i feel sorry. :)

[Wolfgang]

Publicado originalmente por NIkoli Voldkif:

Publicado originalmente por Wolfgang:

Ok, let's imagine they add that to the game. What would it do for the core gameplay loop?
Actually nothing aside from also making the machines, belts, pipes be affected by that (floating stuff is in that case bad because reasons). Which is a ton of work that is extremely unlikely to happen at the stage where the game currently is. In fact it would actually encourage players to build on the ground without anything because that won't break. Making a shell around your factory is not needed for it to function. If they wanted to build off the ground they would just make a solid box of foundations up and build on that. Also not something that encourages building a shell around it.
In sum it would make the gameplay just more tedious. Right now, you can choose between not building with support or building with support. Taking away choices is generally not a good way to make a game better.

Floating stuff is not just bad because of reasons. What is the core game design. Well the base is that you are sent to a planet to explore and build up a factory on the world to exploit the resources while navigating the obstacles on the planet. If you can simply start, build 50 4m foundations in the air and a ramp up, then ignore the planet for everything besides going down to upgrade miners. again why have the map in the first place? Now do I care if people want to mod the game to be able to do that or build below the map, not really. But part of game design is to put challenges for the players to overcome.

So yes, taking away choices is not only often good, but is required in game design. I'm playing a fps railroad game right now waiting on update 8 for satisfactory. I can't just build tracks through the sky without support in that game. In that game it's done through height limits by the various bridge and rail types. Guess what it makes the game MORE fun, because with out it the game is kinda dumb.

I mean why should we even have nodes spread across the map it only makes people have to build long belts/pipe/truck/train routes? I mean that is a main reason for the game. But why shouldn't players just be able to spawn everything right where they want it in whatever amount they want. Why should the game developers restrict my choice to do that? yeah, because it kinda of makes the game they are designing stupid.

As for building a shell, lets be honest there is no reason for that now outside of lag reduction, and it's actually something that I really wouldn't mind if it was changed but it would require a whole machine breakdown system for uncovered equipment that isn't considered weather protected.

Here is the problem with that: The game would have to be built with that in mind. It clearly never was. But the reason you argue for having that is restricting the creativity of players to come up with their solutions. Of course you have to restrict some stuff to make a game worth playing but seeing that only a handfull of players at maximum are requesting "realistic building" should tell you a lot about the need there is currently from players.
However, factory maintenance has already been declined:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4LlorYbVV0&t=356s

The whole idea falls down with it not being part of the game the devs are making. They want it to be a chill factory building game and that tedium is not that. I personally don't want to contact someone working in statics to give me an idea as to how I can build the stuff over water without it breaking because not stable. I want to build a production line, not study statics for 2 years just to be able to not have to only build on the ground.

[Mojo]

Here we go again..... had been so peaceful

[Stress Tensor]

Publicado originalmente por NIkoli Voldkif:

Publicado originalmente por Wolfgang:

Ok, let's imagine they add that to the game. What would it do for the core gameplay loop?
Actually nothing aside from also making the machines, belts, pipes be affected by that (floating stuff is in that case bad because reasons). Which is a ton of work that is extremely unlikely to happen at the stage where the game currently is. In fact it would actually encourage players to build on the ground without anything because that won't break. Making a shell around your factory is not needed for it to function. If they wanted to build off the ground they would just make a solid box of foundations up and build on that. Also not something that encourages building a shell around it.
In sum it would make the gameplay just more tedious. Right now, you can choose between not building with support or building with support. Taking away choices is generally not a good way to make a game better.

Floating stuff is not just bad because of reasons. What is the core game design. Well the base is that you are sent to a planet to explore and build up a factory on the world to exploit the resources while navigating the obstacles on the planet. If you can simply start, build 50 4m foundations in the air and a ramp up, then ignore the planet for everything besides going down to upgrade miners. again why have the map in the first place? Now do I care if people want to mod the game to be able to do that or build below the map, not really. But part of game design is to put challenges for the players to overcome.

So yes, taking away choices is not only often good, but is required in game design. I'm playing a fps railroad game right now waiting on update 8 for satisfactory. I can't just build tracks through the sky without support in that game. In that game it's done through height limits by the various bridge and rail types. Guess what it makes the game MORE fun, because with out it the game is kinda dumb.

I mean why should we even have nodes spread across the map it only makes people have to build long belts/pipe/truck/train routes? I mean that is a main reason for the game. But why shouldn't players just be able to spawn everything right where they want it in whatever amount they want. Why should the game developers restrict my choice to do that? yeah, because it kinda of makes the game they are designing stupid.

As for building a shell, lets be honest there is no reason for that now outside of lag reduction, and it's actually something that I really wouldn't mind if it was changed but it would require a whole machine breakdown system for uncovered equipment that isn't considered weather protected.

I for one think these are great points. The rhetorical questions illustrate that the developers already both add elements and also "take away choices" which do not necessarily add or detract from the game play loop but are done to maintain at least some semblance of realism and challenge, which yes are good things in games.

But I also have to agree that the two problems with actually implementing something like this are:

1. the programming/development difficulty, especially at this stage of development, and
2. doing it in a way that doesn't introduce a great deal of complexity when building and thus slowing down progress too much to be enjoyable

The first is a practical limitation. Whereas the second is more conceptual and subjective and thus subject to this somewhat heated debate.

[~\\Savarast//~]

Lots of building games forgo building physics in favor of making the building more accessible, Minecraft and Terraria for example. I do get what you are saying though, and in general I build "logical" buildings with supports/foundations and do not build in the sky. That said, to each their own, the game doesn't punish us for playing how we like, and I don't think it ought to punish other players for playing how they like to

[HeTiCu7]

My game is set in the 24th century, where here, in the Federation, we have anit-grav plating. Floating walkways do not seem unrealistic to me. But your lack of imagination does. Don't you have to imagine that you are on another planet to play this game? Is that true to realism at this time and technology level?

[Huren Ogeko]

dont argue with alien physics and futuristic technology and materials

[❤ Sly Succubus ❤]

You know all of this is null and void when the baseline game requires the construction of a machine that uses a magnetic pole to toss things into space to where a large spherical object and outright in the real world the basics for a space elevator require an understanding of both gravity and weight of what both the object in orbit and elevator is made of to not cause it to collapse.

The fact we forgo the entire part of an orbital ring station says how were far enough in the future that we've surpassed the need of orbital ring construction platforms and can simply use highly alloyed materials to do the job

Another part is that this planet does not care for what we humans call logic, less we forget that to the north east is literally a several mile drop into a massive desert of death, there's literally a hole to the West with clouds and air coming out implying we may be on a hollow planet and even near Paradise island there's another massive cavern opening where water from the oceans run down into from many sides implying that the planet is indeed hollow.

If were seriously looking at this from even a possible logical point of view, gravity clearly does not function the same way on this planet as it does on earth, heck thats rather understandable.

A car in your driveway for example would still be a car on earth
On Mars that car would become a stunt vehicle with a semi-grasp of returning to the ground after ramping off of something

And on jupiter, that car would literally collapse upon itself before it got out of driveway.

[Mojo]

Publicado originalmente por Jeff:

The game allows you to do this, but you would never see anything like this is real life.

You can't build things from a price scanner gun in real life either, but you are ok with it in this game, but floating structures kill realism.....riiiiiiiiiiiiggggghhhhhhhht.

[Huren Ogeko]

This sort of game lets you define your own rules...make it as realistic as you like or just go with the magic physics where any structure is somehow sound. You can rationalize any rules you apply to you building method that you want. This is the power of a sandbox game.

all the tools needed to use either playstyle are in the game...and many more can be found in mods

[rexisnotmydog]

they added supports for people who like realism, feel free to use them. I'd play a game that required them, but this one doesn't and I'm okay with that. For me the planet and animals provides a great scenic backdrop. I don't need suspension of disbelief.

[Dreusyla Arashi]

maybe this isn't the game for you if you cant let others enjoy the game the way they want to when they paid good money for it move on and find something else to play

[McCloud]

Jeff's the greatest gamer of all time you noobs!