Why are geothermal generators so horrible?

[umop-apisdn]

By the time you can unlock geothermal generators, even if you immediately plopped one on every geyser in the map the power gain would be a fraction of what you're already producing. At this point, their only purpose seems to be as a "red herring" or "noob trap", wasting resources and research time that would be better spent on literally anything else.

What gives, Coffee Stain? Why do you hate Geothermal Generators so much? I understand that "free energy" isn't acceptable for your vision of the game, but if you hate clean/green power so much, why bother leaving geothermal in the game at all?

Either reduce the tech required to make them so they're actually relevant when you can unlock them, increase their power output so there's a reason to build them by the time you actually can, or remove them from the game entirely... because in their current form they're essentially just high-priced garbage.

[Maehlice]

Originally posted by umop-apisdn:

... they're essentially just high-priced garbage.

Isn't that redundant? I mean, garbage of any price is "high-priced," right? ;)

Otherwise to all of that, yes. CSS has said before that don't like the state of geothermal, so there's at least hope of change for the better.

[umop-apisdn]

Originally posted by Maehlice:

Originally posted by umop-apisdn:

... they're essentially just high-priced garbage.

Isn't that redundant? I mean, garbage of any price is "high-priced," right? ;)

A fair point... my intent was to point out that at their current technology requirements and power output, they are simply completely worthless. The requirements are too late-game to justify the pittance of power they produce.

To clarify my point, here's some math:

There are 18 geysers on the map, which would produce an average of 4500 MW if fully tapped.
To build Geothermal Generators, you need Supercomputers.
Building Supercomputers requires oil-based components (and computers) that are not unlocked until Tier 5.

Both Tier 5 and Tier 6 are unlocked by completing Space Elevator Phase 2, which means if you have access to oil, you have access to Fuel Generators, which produce 150 MW each. 4500 MW is only 30 Fuel Generators.

One extractor on an impure Crude Oil node produces 60 cubic meters per minute at 100% clock speed, which can then be turned into 40 Fuel and 30 Polymer Resin per minute (not including alternative recipes or overclocking). 40 Fuel per minute will run 3.3 Fuel Generators at 100% clock speed; this produces 500 MW per impure Crude Oil node, with a side effect of free coupons (assuming you're sinking the resin).

Therefore, nine impure oil nodes' worth of oil can produce enough fuel to generate 4500 MW of power. For that matter, the worst collection of oil nodes on the map (one normal, 2 impure; across the canyon north of "that place" in the Northern Forest) can generate 2000 MW worth of fuel with zero alternative recipes and zero overclocking. Add in a few alternative recipes and a pair of Water Extractors, overclock the Oil Extractors to 150%... and that 4 impure oil nodes' worth of Crude Oil turns into enough fuel to run 36 Fuel Generators (5400 MW).

To make matters worse, without an array of Power Storage, you can't use more than 2250 MW of that Geothermal Generator power production without the risk of blowing fuses, because the power output fluctuates... in addition, Geothermal can't be overclocked.

It is absolutely trivial to produce that amount of power; A 2400 MW coal power facility (32 generators with no overclocking) can be constructed less than three hours into a new save without even being a speedrunner. The most difficult requirements are the overclocked Mk.2 Miners on a pair of pure Coal nodes (or 4 normal nodes), and the space to place a dozen Water Extractors.

Disclaimer: yes, I'm ignoring the power required for miners, extractors, and other production machinery; I'm also ignoring the time spent hunting the entire map for roughly 1 geyser per 2 square kilometers, so I think it's a fair exchange.
In addition, the overclocking and alternative recipe version of "the worst collection of oil nodes on the map" has a net output of 4600 MW after accounting for the power used in the production process... and that's making regular Fuel, not TurboFuel.

[umop-apisdn]

To make a long thread shorter:

I feel like tripling the power output of the Geothermal Generator would bring it more in line with the requirements. 14 GW is much more impactful than 4 GW, and would add enough incentive to make "spending a couple hours traipsing across the landscape with 300 Supercomputers in my pocket" a meaningful decision, as opposed to an afterthought.

Alternatively, drop the requirements to unlock and build the Geothermal Generator to Tier 3/4, making it a reasonable alternative to coal power; perhaps swap the supercomputers and rubber for some Steel Pipes and Encased Industrial Beams, and reduce the Heavy Modular Frames to merely Modular Frames. This would still feel "expensive" at that stage, but would be more in-line with that Tier's power output capability.

In addition, it would still require the Silicon Circuit Board alternative recipe to be able to make the High-Speed Connectors before unlocking oil. That is to say, it wouldn't just be an automatic "unlock this instead of Coal", but would require some additional exploration and research (and perhaps even luck) in order to actually achieve it; thus it would become an "alternate path", increasing the number of options (ie, player choices) in the game, or at least increasing the incentive to harvest a few more hard drives before passing it up.

As a third alternative, simply pull it out of the game completely; as I said before, it's currently a waste of time and resources to even bother researching it. As it stands right now, it's a poorly-constructed Chekhov's Gun; we can see the rifle on the mantle in the first act, but we can't even think about firing it until the fifth.

[T-Bone Biggins]

I don't do mods but there is a mod because of this exact sentiment. It is called Geothermal MK0 and adds a geothermal plant that produces 500MW, and only costs the most basic resources. I personally think it would be a neat idea for CSS to pick up and run with:

https://ficsit.app/mod/3ojs9FiDsz1sMB

[Jembawls]

Hi! Thanks for your feedback! Fair points on the geothermal. I strongly recommend making a post over on our QA site so that the rest of the team can see this too. https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/

[jamiechi]

Originally posted by T-Bone Biggins:

I don't do mods but there is a mod because of this exact sentiment. It is called Geothermal MK0 and adds a geothermal plant that produces 500MW, and only costs the most basic resources. I personally think it would be a neat idea for CSS to pick up and run with:

https://ficsit.app/mod/3ojs9FiDsz1sMB

Thanks. I think I will try this one.

[umop-apisdn]

Originally posted by Jembawls:

Hi! Thanks for your feedback! Fair points on the geothermal. I strongly recommend making a post over on our QA site so that the rest of the team can see this too. https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/

Done; see https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/622fcf81831c85205236ca28

[Jembawls]

Originally posted by umop-apisdn:

Originally posted by Jembawls:

Hi! Thanks for your feedback! Fair points on the geothermal. I strongly recommend making a post over on our QA site so that the rest of the team can see this too. https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/

Done; see https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/622fcf81831c85205236ca28

Great! Thank you very much. Anyone else stumbling across this: just know you can also upvote other posts on the QA site. It helps us gauge interest on certain topics.

[moe_pse]

+1 upvote. thnx to OP for pointing out and posting on q&a

[GobboKirk]

Originally posted by umop-apisdn:

To make a long thread shorter:

I feel like tripling the power output of the Geothermal Generator would bring it more in line with the requirements. 14 GW is much more impactful than 4 GW, and would add enough incentive to make "spending a couple hours traipsing across the landscape with 300 Supercomputers in my pocket" a meaningful decision, as opposed to an afterthought.

Alternatively, drop the requirements to unlock and build the Geothermal Generator to Tier 3/4, making it a reasonable alternative to coal power; perhaps swap the supercomputers and rubber for some Steel Pipes and Encased Industrial Beams, and reduce the Heavy Modular Frames to merely Modular Frames. This would still feel "expensive" at that stage, but would be more in-line with that Tier's power output capability.

Not bad ideas at all, only reason I built mine was really because I just figured I'd do it.
Having a proper use at the correct time is a way better reason :)

[DrNewcenstein]

I'd like to see Geothermal between biomass and coal. It has limitations similar to biomass, but doesn't have the scalability of coal. Capping natural steam vents (or to harness flowing water) to actuate pistons would be in line with the progression of human industrial development, as would its limitations; you can't make rivers go faster, nor make thermal vents (Old Faithful, as an example) bend to your will (at least not in any way that doesn't shorten its lifespan or your own).

Burning coal to boil water, however, scales almost infinitely. More water + more coal = more power.

As for the requirements for the technology, one need only look to the Victorian Era. Computers can do nothing with a steam engine except monitor and report operational status, which can also be done with a simple pressure gauge. If the devs implemented machine wear, then you could say the materials used would directly affect power fluctuations.

They could also implement tiers, with or without machine maintenance aspects:
Mk 1 (before coal): iron. but deep power drops as it fluctuates, as the machine practically beats itself to pieces and rusts. About half the power capacity of a Mk 2, but twice the capability of a biomass burner.
Mk 2: steel beams, with not so drastic power drops as it resists the inherent volatility, but still susceptible to rust. Half the power of a Mk 3.
Mk 3: modular frames to enhance stability, with further reduced power drops. Half the output of a Mk 4.
Mk 4: heavy modular frames, with a simple valve system that balances output to further reduce power drops. Half the output of a Mk 5.
Mk 5: computer-controlled to further reduce fluctuation. (about the same output as the current geothermal unit).
Mk 6: super-computer, flexible framework, aluminum, maybe even some of the "coated" recipes to resist the heat, vibration, and minerals, resulting in minimal power fluctuation. Output is consistent (i.e. flat) and at least 1.5x the current geothermal units because the machine is more efficient, converting not only the steam but also redirecting the vibratory force into energy.

If the construction tiers made use of some of the alternate recipes, you can slightly improve the integrity of each unit in a given tier (where applicable, starting with steel/Mk 2) and gain some output (steel screws, coated this or that, rubber concrete, flexible frames, etc etc).

[T-Bone Biggins]

Originally posted by DrNewcenstein:

I'd like to see Geothermal between biomass and coal. It has limitations similar to biomass, but doesn't have the scalability of coal. Capping natural steam vents (or to harness flowing water) to actuate pistons would be in line with the progression of human industrial development, as would its limitations; you can't make rivers go faster, nor make thermal vents (Old Faithful, as an example) bend to your will (at least not in any way that doesn't shorten its lifespan or your own).

Burning coal to boil water, however, scales almost infinitely. More water + more coal = more power.

As for the requirements for the technology, one need only look to the Victorian Era. Computers can do nothing with a steam engine except monitor and report operational status, which can also be done with a simple pressure gauge. If the devs implemented machine wear, then you could say the materials used would directly affect power fluctuations.

They could also implement tiers, with or without machine maintenance aspects:
Mk 1 (before coal): iron. but deep power drops as it fluctuates, as the machine practically beats itself to pieces and rusts. About half the power capacity of a Mk 2, but twice the capability of a biomass burner.
Mk 2: steel beams, with not so drastic power drops as it resists the inherent volatility, but still susceptible to rust. Half the power of a Mk 3.
Mk 3: modular frames to enhance stability, with further reduced power drops. Half the output of a Mk 4.
Mk 4: heavy modular frames, with a simple valve system that balances output to further reduce power drops. Half the output of a Mk 5.
Mk 5: computer-controlled to further reduce fluctuation. (about the same output as the current geothermal unit).
Mk 6: super-computer, flexible framework, aluminum, maybe even some of the "coated" recipes to resist the heat, vibration, and minerals, resulting in minimal power fluctuation. Output is consistent (i.e. flat) and at least 1.5x the current geothermal units because the machine is more efficient, converting not only the steam but also redirecting the vibratory force into energy.

If the construction tiers made use of some of the alternate recipes, you can slightly improve the integrity of each unit in a given tier (where applicable, starting with steel/Mk 2) and gain some output (steel screws, coated this or that, rubber concrete, flexible frames, etc etc).

Multiple tiers of geothermal is not a bad idea. Remember, most players in the first 4 tiers won't have power lines reaching all the geothermal locations on the map. So you must expect that they only access a few. For example most players who start in the grassplains won't find any geothermal locations until they go past the coal/sulphur deposits to the southeast and cross that rock bridge into the blue crater with the huge lake in the SE corner of the map. That's usually the first geothermal most players naturally find without prior map knowledge....so it's highly unlikely they will even use the tier 1-3 geothermal plants you proposed.

The tier 4 makes sense, by then you have bladerunners and are exploring longer distances. T4 geothermals are made of crappier materials so it produces overall less energy. In real life we would accept this as losses due to the chemicals eating the material away, that is not easy to simulate in-game unless you make the geothermal require iron plates or even copper sheets and give it a port to accept a belt for the materials.

[DaBa]

I think it comes down to accurate comparisons. On paper, if you look at individual power production options, geo thermal plants do not appear to be a bad option. Especially since they do not occupy any resources that are used for something else. So, that's the theory.

Here's what happen in practice: players build power production in big batches. 16 coal generators, 14 fuel generators, and so on. You cannot build geothermal generators in batches like that, and they require additional infrastructure to make them work reliably. So they cannot compete.

So, even if you have all the tech unlocked, when faced with a decision to go and find a geothermal vent and then build a generator on it, you're always be wondering why would you do that when you can just go and tap another oil node, build another batch of fuel generators and get 10 times as much power.

How to address this? Making them produce much more power (a few times as much at least), to the point of becoming a significant contributor to lategame bases, feels like the easiest and the most logical solution. Setting up multiple geothermal generators is a lengthy process that I would like to feel rewarded for with adequate results, not feel like I just wasted my time doing something insignificant. There may be an even better answer to this problem, but I feel like this would already be a good start.

Geothermal should be an optional step a player can take to bridge the gap between fuel generators and nuclear.

[traviniperv]

its the only power source that doesnt require constant attention, and for those of you who actually play the game properly without cheating, you will probably realize how helpful that actually is.

[cywizz]

Originally posted by traviniperv:

its the only power source that doesnt require constant attention, and for those of you who actually play the game properly without cheating, you will probably realize how helpful that actually is.

Well it is only Biomass Burners that really requires attention...the rest are all automated power sources