is there any reason to use trains or trucks vs belts

[eqalidan]

I honestly cant find much telling me not to just use belts

[Evilsod]

Okay, I've come to the conclusion that what you're getting at has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of belts vs trains/trucks/tractors.

Grandaddypurple님이 먼저 게시:

I didn't really understand what was meant by latency so I didn't go deeper but yea now I understand and I agree with you. Also there shouldn't be anything such as "demand spike" in this game.
I don't know why people have so much trouble realising that any transportation method is just removing the middle section of a belt and replacing it with trucks/trains/drones. There's no throughput advantage, nor disadvantage unless you screw up the rondtrip time

Yeah, demand spike isn't really a thing. All it means is your production can't handle the capacity once you actually start using resources you've stockpiled.

I know what you mean. People seem to forget that every system requires belts. You can't transport faster than the belts that supply it.

[Whisper]

I like driving more than building 100 km belts :)

more seriously, I see some advantages for the truck (and others) system:
- they are MUCH cheaper (that matters early on)
- faster to setup (not always however)
- more compact than train stations
- more flexible on the route than the rails

even if it's surely less efficient than belts and trains

on the refueling problem, depending on the fuel you use and the length of the road, it is possible to load it only on one side

they could also theoretically avoid building a power line: With 4 stations (2 for normal loading one way/ 2 for generator fuel loading the other way)
but i think it would lead to fuel overflow if not accuratly setup :/ if only we could fix a loading/unloading quantity at stations...

afterwards, over very long distances / big loads / liquids, trains are surely better

[DrNewcenstein]

Whisper님이 먼저 게시:

but i think it would lead to fuel overflow

I work in the Grass Fields zone. I have all my oil refining stuff in the pit (paved the lake).
I run a train out of the pit that carries turbo fuel up to the dropoff for the quartz near the pond on the plateau just above the pit.
The turbofuel is fed into the fuel port of the truck station which loads quartz products into the train at this stop.
It will be a very, very long time before this turbo fuel platform needs to be refilled.
Fuel overflow is not an issue.

[DrNewcenstein]

Evilsod님이 먼저 게시:

If you load a station with 60 items/min and for arguments sake, the full cycle of the truck takes exactly one minute, you transport exactly 60 items every trip. Doesn't matter what belt you use to input/output, it outputs at 60 items/min.
If you load a station with 60 items/min and it takes 10 minutes for a full cycle, you transport 600 items every trip. The output is still 60 items/min.
It's completely irrelevant how fast you unload the station. The truck is transporting 60 items/min.

Grandaddypurple님이 먼저 게시:

Increasing belt speed doesn't magically increase your throughput

I think you're just too focused on the fact that truck stations can move 120 stacks per minute from vehicles, and are confusing belt speed with throughput

1. Throughput is not a metric that is measured in this game, it's an arbitrary concept, because all actual timers regarding start-to-finish are limited to contiguous connected systems.
e.g.
[START]Miner>Smelter>Constructor>Truck Station A [END]
[START]Truck Station B>next/final stop(further processing, storage, sink, etc)[END]

The total time it takes to go from extracted ore to Space Elevator is not measured, reported, or tracked by the game's systems, and so is inconsequential. All that matters is whether a machine's consumption rate is met.

2. Production timers on machines start when their minimum consumption quantity is received and the production cycle of said machine begins.
A Mk 5 belt moves material at 780 items per minute, whether it has 780 items to move or not. A vehicle traveling at 60 MPH is traveling at a rate of 1 miler per minute, no matter how far it travels or how much time it actually spends traveling. Ergo, 600 items will belt out of the truck station at a rate of 780 items/minute, or 13 items every second. A smelter at 100% clock speed consumes 45 Caterium Ore per minute and produces 15 Caterium Ingots per minute The time it takes for Caterium Ore to get from the output of the Miner to the input of the Smelter is not measured by the game, and is irrelevant to the Smelter's production time, as long as it receives a minimum of 45 parts per minute.

[Grandaddypurple]

DrNewcenstein님이 먼저 게시:

1. Throughput is not a metric that is measured in this game, it's an arbitrary concept, because all actual timers regarding start-to-finish are limited to contiguous connected systems.
e.g.
[START]Miner>Smelter>Constructor>Truck Station A [END]
[START]Truck Station B>next/final stop(further processing, storage, sink, etc)[END]

The total time it takes to go from extracted ore to Space Elevator is not measured, reported, or tracked by the game's systems, and so is inconsequential. All that matters is whether a machine's consumption rate is met.

No one except you said how fast an item gets from point A to point B was relevant:

Maehlice님이 먼저 게시:

Speed is moot. Only throughput is important.

Although for trains and trucks, their roundtrip must be faster than the time it takes for items to fill their storage
_______

DrNewcenstein님이 먼저 게시:

A Mk 5 belt moves material at 780 items per minute, whether it has 780 items to move or not.

Yes but that's not THROUGHPUT !!!! If you observe an Mk5 belt for 10 minutes and it's idle for 9 of those minutes, then your throughput is divided by 10!!!!
Try and feed truck station A with 60 iron ores per minute and connect truck station B to 26 smelters (needing 780/min), and you'll see if your mk5 belt is moving 780 per minute........

DrNewcenstein님이 먼저 게시:

The total time it takes to go from extracted ore to Space Elevator is not measured, reported, or tracked by the game's systems, and so is inconsequential. All that matters is whether a machine's consumption rate is met.

No it's not measured, but the rate at which items move between these two points is and is the core mechanic of this game

[Maehlice]

DrNewcenstein님이 먼저 게시:

A Mk 5 belt moves material at 780 items per minute, whether it has 780 items to move or not.

Are you trying to debate on technicality?

Yes, a Mk.5 belt will move items at a speed equivalent to 780 items per minute -- which is roughly 55kph. But, that is still not a meaningful measurement.

"Speed" is a (mostly) useless metric in Satisfactory.

"Speed" is only relevant to personal travel and when applied to a train/truck/drone network to calculate throughput.

What we (I, at least) mean by "throughput" is the average transmission rate over an infinite period of time.

... 600 items will belt out of the truck station at a rate of 780 items/minute, or 13 items every second.

And here's the technicality.

Yes, 600 parts will fly out at 780/min, but they won't do that forever. Unless that station is also consistently fed at that rate, the belt will experience lulls when it must sit idle awaiting the next delivery.

The time it takes for Caterium Ore to get from the output of the Miner to the input of the Smelter is not measured by the game, and is irrelevant to the Smelter's production time, as long as it receives a minimum of 45 parts per minute.

Exactly. Because throughput.

Throughput is a calculation of the end result.

[luntacarsus]

Trains let you create some nifty architecture.

[Clover Creepy Girl™]

I have gone through and undid my map wide train network and just replaced it all with belts, since the trains were horrible inefficient

[Grandaddypurple]

Stephanie Sad Girl™님이 먼저 게시:

I have gone through and undid my map wide train network and just replaced it all with belts, since the trains were horrible inefficient

They aren't, you just set it up wrong

[HashireV3]

In my world, i have a bunch of satellite factories producing a bunch of parts that i use a train to bring back to my main base where it's all sorted into storage containers to be used for more complex items. Helps keep FPS up, and clutter contained.

[Edifier]

So far I've just been dragging Mark 4 tracks across the world. Took too long to unlock trains and if I ever need more items I'll just put down an extra lane.

Then put it all into one or two storage containers closer to my main factory.

Don't think I'll bother with trains due to the terrain because it's a lot of ups and down.

[DrNewcenstein]

Edifier님이 먼저 게시:

So far I've just been dragging Mark 4 tracks across the world. Took too long to unlock trains and if I ever need more items I'll just put down an extra lane.

Then put it all into one or two storage containers closer to my main factory.

Don't think I'll bother with trains due to the terrain because it's a lot of ups and down.

Trains do unlock rather late to be beneficial to smaller factories, but for Tier 8/9 Space Elevator requirements of 4000 parts requiring at least 3 Manufacturers and 2 Assemblers (just to make 1 part every 1.3 minutes at 250%), you're going to want a train hauling at least 2 cars of Quickwire. That means you'll need more than one Caterium node being tapped, preferably one just to supply Quickwire for that.
And that's just ONE part for the Space Elevator. Haven't unlocked the other 3 yet, but I'm guessing their tied in with nuclear business and the advanced aluminum milestones.

And you're going to need a lot of aluminum casings and plates before that.

Personally I think Trucks could unlock one Tier sooner. Their off-road capabilities make them a fine compliment to Tractors moving things around in a paved factory where things might be a bit cramped. Of course a slightly smaller Tractor Station with a matching storage capacity would be nice, as well. Give it a smaller trigger box so you have to be directly in front of it under the boom arm. Maybe even make it a miniature version of the freight platforms with 4 legs and an overhead crane, just tall and wide enough for a Tractor or Explorer, but too small for a Truck.

[DrNewcenstein]

The other benefit to vehicles over belts: You get the one version, and it does what it does. With belts, every time you unlock a faster one, you have to upgrade each segment individually. If you've got a single straight belt you can just hop on and upgrade as you ride, but if you've got a dozen stacked belts, you're on foot doing it 12 times at each segment. That's gotta be fun.
You don't have to upgrade each vehicle or truck stations, they just work. You can upgrade their fuel source from coal to turbofuel, which gives them a higher MPG on a single tank.

[DrNewcenstein]

Grandaddypurple님이 먼저 게시:

Stephanie Sad Girl™님이 먼저 게시:

I have gone through and undid my map wide train network and just replaced it all with belts, since the trains were horrible inefficient

They aren't, you just set it up wrong

It was sarcasm.

[DrNewcenstein]

Maehlice님이 먼저 게시:

DrNewcenstein님이 먼저 게시:

A Mk 5 belt moves material at 780 items per minute, whether it has 780 items to move or not.

Are you trying to debate on technicality?

Yes, a Mk.5 belt will move items at a speed equivalent to 780 items per minute -- which is roughly 55kph. But, that is still not a meaningful measurement.

"Speed" is a (mostly) useless metric in Satisfactory.

"Speed" is only relevant to personal travel and when applied to a train/truck/drone network to calculate throughput.

What we (I, at least) mean by "throughput" is the average transmission rate over an infinite period of time.

Again, throughput is not measured by the game, and is therefore of no consequence.
The only consideration is ensuring that the supply is, at minimum, equal to the consumption rate. If a truck travels 3,000 km with a single stack of goods and drops it into a truck station that feeds it directly into a machine that will consume that one stack in the time it takes said truck to bring back another, that's all that matters. Fuel efficiency of the truck is of no consequence. Time spent traveling without cargo is of no consequence.
If a belt 3,000 km long can do that, and you want to spend the time weaving it across the great outdoors, then by all means, knock yourself out.

Just be sure to pick a route where you won't be building later, because then you have to build around it, or move it, which increases its length, which increases the time it takes for material to reach the other end, which counts against that inconsequential throughput.

... 600 items will belt out of the truck station at a rate of 780 items/minute, or 13 items every second.

And here's the technicality.

Yes, 600 parts will fly out at 780/min, but they won't do that forever. Unless that station is also consistently fed at that rate, the belt will experience lulls when it must sit idle awaiting the next delivery.
[/quote]

There is no problem keeping a truck station fed at a suitable rate. Unlike machines which require X amount of input to achieve Y amount of Output, trucks can make a continuous loop even if there's not even a full stack of goods to collect, so long as the receiving station has room to take it.