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Additionally, automate EVERYTHING. It makes your life a heck of a lot easier - even if you'll still craft some of it yourself, having that passive generation will be very helpful for when you need it.
Good news everyone! I have sucessfully automated dying. I have created a belt at my spawnpoint that transports me directly off a cliff, so when I repsawn again I will automatically die. (I am cheating somewhat by employing a macro to right click to respawn.
You did say everything right? :3
If you're spending hours at the bench, you're 100% doing it wrong lol.
As a point of order - if multiple people consistently make the same mistake, there's an argument to be made about the underlying mechanics predisposing some people towards making that mistake. Shifting blame to the player is not without reason, but it equally isn't a solution.
Imagine a brand newbie running back and forth, I recall my first factory had limestone/cement set up way across the factory area, then power goes out. Okay run across. Unlike other games I gotta reset the fuse. Oh, okay, why'd it stop? This game shuts down all power if you go a single MW over capacity, throw some more biomass in there, oh, your crafting bench is far away, so I guess some flowers will do. But now you have to assemble a new biomass burner too, but the factory Will NOT Operate until you build another burner. But all your other automation has turned off.
A newbie needs to worry about the limited power pole connections, automation completely shutting down, gathering flowers n' running back to process it, climbing the tech tree, getting the space elevator up, unlocking coal tech that needs 50 rotors. And that is IF you dash straight for coal. In my first game I thought jump pads would be cool to get, which was another 50 rotors which was another ungodly amount of screws, but just to get the first space elevator shipment going sucked up rotors too.
And if you venture too far for fuel you might be stuck in combat with some Big Boys that don't care about your cattle prod.
Its a lot to worry about for those that don't know the tech tree, world layout, what tech or building does what, how to connect construction and assembler units. Once you know what to do I am sure it goes easier.
I'm not even entirely sure how to improve it all, but it is a lot to consider for the newbie.
I would agree. It is like the old factorio arguments when someone new poses a question, and the veterans ask, "why not just be aware of things you don't know yet." Satisfactory has a lot to offer. Usually factories in all these games start out as spaghetti nightmares and the fun of the game comes in learning to improve such designs. It can be very easy to make mistakes in building placement because you don't know how much you'll need. Consider the leadup to Coal requires a hefty amount of rotors which is a ton of screws. Which requires plenty of iron bars.
And the faster you expand the faster you chew through power, exacerbating this thread's issue on gathering biomass.
And the issue with handcrafting is the need to return home to the bench to make more items. But if you need more assemblers or such, but your facility isn't scaled up or you didn't look online for golden ratios and setups, chances are a newbie will either sit around waiting for materials or wind up trying to speed things up with hand crafting.
That was the big one for me, yes. Cards on the table, I did indeed cause a lot of my issues. However, I maintain that this game's Byzantine progression system didn't help. Again, we're dealing with no fewer than three separate tech trees with most of the items in them hidden. I wanted a map, but had no idea how to get it. Turns out it's in the Quartz tree, which wasn't even named for me because I hadn't discovered Quartz. I also wanted stilts to run faster (friend of mine had mentioned), but they were buried down in the bottom of the Caterium tree, which for me showed up as a question mark.
I did a lot of stupid things because I wasn't aware of what the game even had to offer. I could have cut my travel time in half if I'd known where to find the Bladerunners. I'd have spent less time driving Tractors if I'd known where to find the Explorer. I wouldn't have rushed to research lights if I knew they all cost Quarts (and are terrible). By this point, I quite literally split my time 50/50 between the game and the wiki because all too often I don't have even basic information.
Aha! I unlocked a recipe to make Iron out of ore and water. OK, plop down a foundry and... what do you mean that's not for the Foundry? Oh, the foundry can't take water. OK, what can I make this in, then? Wiki says... "A building you don't have yet and aren't going to have for quite a while." Well, sure glad I ran a water pipe all the way from the falls, then.
Yea the game certainly has a knack for hiding what it is you would have wanted to work towards if you just knew about it in advance, as well as letting you discover a new thing that gives you something new and cool but at the same time makes that huge thing you just spent hours building useless in a feelsbad kind of way.
How to advance down the tech tree is one of the things I like better about Factorio. The process of going from manual labor and manually feeding machines feels less annoying.
You can if you want to study all of the tech tree to the very bottom and its very easy to figure out what you need to research and build to unlock a certain tech,
and finally when you get new tech and recepies your old gear factory suddenly doesnt suck, buildings and belts just easily upgrades to a better version that are smooth to upgrade, and large scale projects are more focused on design and calculating resources correctly rather than hand placing each machine.
This I certainly agree with. I've already had it happen 2 times that I just finished a major factory build, and then when I unlocked the next tier I went "welp...time to tear it all down and make something incorporating the new stuff I guess..." Also that certain quality of life upgrades don't reveal themselves until you've unlocked certain other unlocks.
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”
There will always be multiple people making the same mistake. If it's not this, it'll be that. And, if not that, the other.The more important focus, I think, is own how many people make the mistake versus how many don't -- the latter group being substantially greater than the former in this case.
I was thinking exactly what H. Guderian said.
Since players can't see what's in the next tier (or behind the next MAM research) until after unlocking it, new players are purely in discovery mode from Tier 0.
So to that end, the early game is not necessarily to get off Biomass and onto coal, because the new player doesn't even know coal exists at that point. All they really know is to make the best of what they have, learn as much as they can, and to progress along the research paths laid out before them.
This thread motivated me to start a new session and to try and replicate my first experience.
1500 hours ago, I knew nearly nothing about this game. It showed up in my list of recommended games and looked interesting. I thought it was 3D Factorio -- which I had also not played but at least seen on streams before. So, I bought Satisfactory.
Everything you mentioned is exactly what I went through and what I venture every new player goes through to some degree.
It's how we each tackle it that sets the early game apart for us.
For me, it was all just problem-solving, which I enjoy anyway.
I studied and learned mob attack patterns and quickly learned how to easily dispatch groups of them.
After resetting the fuse a few times and getting tired of refilling burners, I paid more attention to the burners and realized building more than I needed meant a slower burn time. (Building and stocking 6 times as many burners as I needed meant 5 hours of run time between refills.)
Once refilling a grid of burners because tedious to navigate, I explored my options and concluded floating them right over my head and refilling them from below was easiest.
While the factory (slowly) produced stuff, I minded the early MAM research, which conveniently required nothing from my factory.
Thinking I'd learn to make armour, I set out to gather Carapaces & Organs for research. I gathered biomass along the way and also discovered power slugs, Quartz, and Caterium -- all parts of the MAM research I was already doing "on the side".
After learning what Carapaces and Organs were actually used for, I stopped gathering Leaves and Wood except where it just happened to be convenient.
That's basically where "early game" stopped feeling early any more to me. I knew how to keep the factory running for an extended period of time and felt like I had a clear direction of where I wanted to go.
Each time I was presented with a pain point, I almost immediately found a solution. I never felt lost, and none of it felt like a chore to me.
I remember getting to that point during my first day playing. And, maybe it was due to my ignorance of Coal in the first place, but I never felt pressed or rushed to get out of that stage of power.
I started over the other day in the Grasslands and tried to replicate exactly where I first built and what I did early on.
Mainly, I wanted to know how much time was actually spent gathering bio materials on bare foot with just the zapper.
My first leaf-gathering expedition took 15 minutes and ended with 13 stacks of Solid Biofuel material.
My first alien-hunting expedition took 25 minutes and ended with 25 stacks of Solid Biofuel material.
I was using an average of about 100 MW at that point, so at 1 stack per minute, my "investment" cost was about 1 minute of hunting for 15 minutes of run time -- so right around 7% of my play time.
With more experience and better gear, that time spent goes way down, but even at 7%, I don't think that's unreasonable -- especially for such a short phase of the game.
I think that's why it's hard for me to sympathize with the idea that the early game is tedious, long, boring, or hard -- because the "organic" flow of the game for me was everything but.It feels like a player would have to fight that flow or ignore certain elements of the game for it to get that way.
Mega Man could've announced at the beginning of the game that beating a boss lets you take their weapon and that each boss is weak to the weapon of another boss and that there's a "correct" order of bosses to make the best use of those plundered weapons and then detailed each boss' attack pattern & the best tactics to beat them.
"Doing stupid things" to learn the game used to be an essential and fun part of games.
All too often, I think modern games turn into little more than an exercise in chasing question and exclamation marks and checking off boxes, because far too much is handed to the player on a silver platter.
Why do we need to know exactly what's next? What is so wrong about exploring what's available and just seeing what's next organically?
Back to your original point about mistakes and blaming the player ...
... I can't help but blame the player if something like that actually happens.
The Foundry only has two inputs, and they're both square. By that time, the player has been working with water enough to know its i/o ports are round. On top of that, the recipe (codex) actually states which building(s) can utilize the recipe.
I feel like the player would have to have ignored literally everything in front of them to get themselves into that position.
How does it render it useless? I'm genuinely curious about that.
If factory making Encased Industrial Beams is built, and then the alternate recipe for Encased Industrial Pipe is dicovered, the factory doesn't suddenly stop functioning. It still makes what it was designed to make.
Because resources and space are (nearly) infinite, the decision to tear down and rebuild is entirely at the behest of the player.
I can't think of a single scenario where tearing down a thing just built is objectively necessary.
And here I thought I wasn't going to make a long reply. I'm just gonna go ahead and overstay my welcome. ;)
Citation needed. I've been playing video games for over 30 years now. I didn't even speak English for a lot of that time, so much of what I did in video games was quite literally blind trial and error. This was never "fun," as I've discovered when returning to old games I used to like. It was the cost I paid for poor game design at the time and for me being a dumb kid who didn't know better. The problem is that I've seen better since. Video game design has improved dramatically, and I simply don't feel that citing how things "used to be" back when we didn't know better is a valid argument.
I played the crap out of Commander Keen when I was younger. I was semi-recently gifted the Commande Keen Collection, and I found it virtually unplayable. I had completely forgotten that the game only allows me to save between levels in the overworld, but never during levels. Those had to be completed in one go, on however many "lives" I had, or else game over. I have such "fond" memories of repeating the one underwater level in Keen 4 because a 2UP pick-up could be found pretty early on. I'd grab that die, repeat to build up a pool of lives. These days we'd call that "grinding" and be critical of it, I think, but it's how games "used to play."
When I "do stupid things," I'm actively hurting my overall experience. I'm not having fun, I'm very aware of wasting my time, I'm paying a cost. There's only so much cost I'm willing to pay in pursuit of the promise of fun before I cut my losses and find another video game. That's the unfortunate part of growing up playing video games - I've become keenly aware of their value proposition - aware enough to cut my losses early rather than sink ungodly amounts of time not having fun. I've done video game compulsion, and that's precisely how that starts.
There are other games I could be playing. Tons of other games, actually. Not to mention I have work to do outside of gaming. I could spend infinite time playing video games when I'm 12. I don't have that option any more. I simply don't have the opportunity to play video games badly and being miserable for 30 hours before I actually start having fun. That's time I could have spent having fun in another game, or doing something else altogether.
Yes, it used to be the case that video games would ship with no tutorial and no explanation, forcing the player to figure out basic controls. Arcade games never really told you their controls, so you'd have to learn by trial and error or word of mouth. That was then, this is now. NOW, arcade games - what remains of them - come with move lists and a practice mode, specifically so they don't alienate the vast majority of their player base.
Long story short - just because that's how video games USED TO BE doesn't mean that's how they should continue being. I would have expected the industry to progress in the last 30 years. After all, most modern RPGs no longer require you to pack food for a long journey, and I'm happy for that.
Yes, and if I had ever built a single Foundry prior to that, it would have helped. However, I did this fairly early on before I'd even so much as touched steel. Not to mention this game uses redundant terminology for its buildings. Despite having 20 years experience in English, sometimes I still slip up. To this day, I can't tell you which is which between the Assembler and the Constructor. Nothing about the name of each of those machines suggests one is "higher tech" than the other, or that one has more inputs or outputs.
I had a brief look, I saw "refinery" and in my mind mixed it up with "foundry." I'd never seen the actual Refinery yet, nor did I have any reason to assume that an OIL REFINERY would be the building where I would smelt iron. I mean, mechanically it makes sense - that's a building with one belt and one pipe input... which I'd have known if I'd ever even seen the sodding thing, which I still haven't.
But remember - I'm still a new player, relatively speaking. I'm not new to gaming, but I'm new to THIS game. I don't know the conventions and I can only see what the game is willing to show me - currently, anything up to Tier 4. What reason did I have to assume that a recipe for smelting Iron would require a building I didn't have access to, when I already had access to what I thought was all of the game's smelting tech?
Again, yes - I made a mistake. I should have verified what I was building before I built it. But again - I refuse to take full credit for this because what I was building was intuitive. What the game required me to build is very much not. And that's the entire game - an unintuitive mess of systems that a veteran player would already know, but a new player simply has no frame of reference for.
Like I said before - you can blame the player all you want. Unless you intend to join every new player's game and blame them for not already knowing how to play, you aren't actually going to address the underlying issue. The game's basic design leads new players into developing bad habits and requires players to break the rules in order to do things better. That may work FOR YOU, but players who enjoy playing games like Josh from Let's Game it Out are not a majority of the population.
Most players will follow the instructions into a dead end, then wonder what they did wrong. I'm a stubborn fool willing to waste his time and do out-of-game research so I eventually figured it out, but the unpleasantness of the initial experience isn't going away any time soon.
This is really more of a tangent on game design theory.
"Fun" is subjective. I'm citing my own experiences. My friends and I had a lot of fun learning games and then either sharing it or using that knowledge to roflstomp them into the ground.
Because -- for a variety of reasons -- detailed instructions and manuals weren't provided it was necessary to try all kinds of (stupid) things.
To be clear, that isn't the argument. I only brought it up as a comparison and to point out how millions of kids enjoyed those games with those mechanics enough that they're still gaming today.
There's no reason those same elements are not or cannot be fun today.
That's not grinding. That's exploiting: exploiting game mechanics and level design.
Grinding would've been playing the level over and over until you learned and mastered it to completion.
Grinding is an actual, desired element in many games. Citation: Dark Souls & every "souls-like" game since as well as every "boss battle" in every game.
That's where the subjective "fun" comes into play.
I acknowledge to myself from the onset that playing a game at all (any form of entertainment, really) is an unproductive waste of my time.
So, I'm probably a lot more forgiving of time spent. I can forgive a lot of things, because I'm in it for the experience. I have no deadline or schedule to keep, nor am I in any rush to move on to something different.
It's very important to note that was done intentionally for monetary reasons. They were effectively the first iterations of "pay to win" and "microtransactions".
Console/PC games have the opposite monetary strategy. It's in developers' best interest for players to exhaust the content as soon as possible, so they can buy the next DLC/release/whatever.
Because they used to be that way is not the argument for why they should still be that way.
But that's also not an argument for why they can't still be that way.
It all comes down to the end result and its reception. (Which is subjective.)
I guess this comes down to just different styles of gaming.
When I unlocked Steel, it's because I wanted Steel. I immediately built a Foundry and looked at its recipes and capabilities. I asked critically, "What did I just unlock, and how can it help me?"
You're faulting game design, but I'm hard pressed to understand how the game could have done any better for a player who unlocks a tech and then literally does nothing to learn about or utilize it.
Maybe it really is a nuance of English.
The connotation of "assembly" is multiples coming together -- such as "places of assembly" like theatres, arenas, churches, etc.
So to that, an Assembler would have to have at least two inputs -- thus setting it apart from the single-input Constructor.
Nothing in the game says "oil refinery".
Just like my sentiment on the Foundry/Steel tech, I'm hard pressed to see how the game can make the player not read what isn't there.
That is likely a bug. From what I understand, the game isn't supposed to permit discovery of an alternate recipe until all of its required techs have been unlocked.
Because reading: it's clearly stated that the recipe requires a "Refinery".
Again, I hate to harp on this, but I still fail to see how game design is at fault for a player's assumptions and mis-reading.
And I think this is where we disagree on what the underlying issue is.
IMO, a player mindlessly unlocking techs for no reason, reading extra words onto the screen, and misreading other words aren't game design issues (at least not in this case).
"Some" new players. I also have to inquire as to what "bad habits" are being formed -- especially considering this is a non-competitive, single-player sandbox game?
Similarly, what rules are being broken!?
Admittedly, you're on point there. I don't play to the same extreme as Josh, but I do play very similarly. As mentioned above, I ask critically about nearly every game element or mechanic, "What is this for, and how can I make the best/most use of it?"
Most players? I would definitely want citation for that.
The instructions tell us to build automated production lines, expand vertically, and do research in the MAM.
Most of the complaints in this (and similar) threads stem from a lack of automation leading to excessive bench-crafting and to a lack of MAM research resulting in sub-par Biomass conversions and gear options.
(If we all followed the stated directions, threads like this might not exist at all.)
Tying this back in to the OP, the early game is fleeting, so I don't see any of its "grinding" and "discovery" to be excessive or detrimental.
Yes, it could be improved, but its current state does not (IMO) make the early game "godawfully terrible"
Where I completely agree with what I think is your sentiment is that the grind should basically stop there.
The ability to scale in this game does not scale with the need for scaling, and I think it's desperately needed.
At this point, I'm really out. I feel like I'm one step removed from flaming and that I have little left to offer or expound upon that I haven't already made clear.
You may have the last word, if you want it. I will not respond and will unsubscribe from the thread after reading it.
I've been rambling, but at least try to understand that the inability to see what is possible makes it very difficult to plan ahead, especially as more mechanics are added in later stages.
Nevertheless, I see a contradiction there. On one hand, foreknowledge is wanted for preplanning, but then when a little foreknowledge is given in the way of an early recipe unlock, reasons are found why that was actually a bad thing. Shouldn't that event be applauded and requested for more?