Some ideas regarding enemies/combat

[The Chaotic Coder]

Let me tell you about the experience I had on my first game:

I had watched a beginner's guide and reviewed the controls. I touched down on Grasslands, since it says it's easiest. As soon as I stepped out of the pod and ADA told me to dismantle it, I did.

I hadn't taken 5 steps before the attacks came. Two Hogs started charging at me, and before I knew what was going on I'd lost 3 health bars. I started running, frantically hammering the Tab key to try to open the inventory and equip my weapon. But nothing happened. ADA was waiting a minute or so before she told me about my inventory, and you have to wait for the message to start before it'll work.

Long story short, I died, started a new game, and it went much better the second time.

Personally, I don't think that a factory-building game needs combat at all. I mean, you don't play Call of Duty expecting to assemble pipes and conveyor belts. But obviously that's subjective, and other players will disagree. My suggestions below try to take that into consideration.

1. Either unlock the inventory from the start, or don't allow creatures to aggro until after the tutorial message has finished. It's only fair.

2. Reduce the number of hostile creatures in Grasslands. It's sold as being for beginners, after all. Especially don't spawn enemies on Iron and Copper nodes in Grasslands. Guarding higher level resources like Coal behind a combat wall is okay, since by that time you have a better weapon.

3. Option when starting a new game: "Peaceful Mode" -- Nothing will attack you unless you attack it first. So you can go after alien carapaces when you're ready, but you can also explore without fear.

3a. You could also have it start out Peaceful, but then as you progress the creatures become more and more hostile. Maybe have it triggered by how many tiers are unlocked, for example, or how many miners you have operating. Or just how many game days have passed.

4. Make the Xeno-Shocker a ranged weapon. Have it shoot electric discharges a dozen meters or so. Spitters have a ranged attack, and Hogs charge at you too fast to melee effectively. Maybe reduce the Shocker's damage, but have it stun the enemy for several seconds so you can get away.

[Evilsod]

Learning how to combat the local wildlife is part of the learning curve.

When I first started, I would end up chasing these hogs round in circles, trying to shortcut them so I could land my hits.
Now I just stand there and let them charge. Your hit interrupts their charge. First double combo stuns them briefly, second double combo kills them without harm.

Spitters? You'd get into a rhythm of bad timings, running up to them, landing two hits, getting blasted back, repeat till one of you dies. If you do it properly, backpeddling after your hits, the spitters AI makes them shoot the floor, go back in for another strike.

Not having the inventory available before they mention it is quite annoying though.

[TyresTyco]

Thats the nature of random start spawn. I mean yeah. Your first start sounds like a horrible first glance into the game. But it was just plain bad luck. I for example spawned on an area in the desert totally alone.

But this also is normal for early access. I bet in the 1.0 version .. the start will be smoothed out.

I like your 2.) idea. Because at the moment. All the biomes feel the same in regards of creatures. With 2-3 small exceptions but there has to be more for such a beautiful world. But they are on that at least.

[sansee]

Having a "peaceful mode" totally defeats the whole premise/purpose of the game as you're (most likely) a clone, sent down to a potentially hostile alien planet, all alone, to build advanced products and send them back into space for this Ficsit company. I agree, some combat is part of the learning curve and it is not difficult to take them out, even as a beginner. Like everything else in life - it helps to learn a few tricks (and you can always load up a save game or start over).

However, I do hope that for the 1.0 version we'll see more creature variations througout the different biomes, like f.ex. Desert could have other creatures that are native only to that biome.

[The Chaotic Coder]

Originally posted by Evilsod:

Learning how to combat the local wildlife is part of the learning curve.

When I first started, I would end up chasing these hogs round in circles, trying to shortcut them so I could land my hits.
Now I just stand there and let them charge. Your hit interrupts their charge. First double combo stuns them briefly, second double combo kills them without harm.

Spitters? You'd get into a rhythm of bad timings, running up to them, landing two hits, getting blasted back, repeat till one of you dies. If you do it properly, backpeddling after your hits, the spitters AI makes them shoot the floor, go back in for another strike.

Right, I understand that learning the tactics is part of it. But remember the game is called Satisfactory, not Satisfightmonsters. I feel like resource gathering and manufacturing should be introduced first (if you choose Grasslands, at least) and then you can start learning to fight once you have a small base set up and need to start going farther to get the more advanced resources. If you don't mind getting attacked immediately and having to fight for your first resource node, then that's what the more difficult spawn locations are for.

[Humpenstilzchen]

1. I agree
2. I disagree, I don´t want less hostile creatures on the map
3. Good idea, there are probably quite some people who would enjoy this, Options are always a good thing.
3a. Good for newbies who want to start slow but also want to experience combat later on. Good idea.
4. No. You just didn´t figure out how to deal with enemies. The first shocker is good enough in my opinion.
A little advice for that charging rino like things, jump over them and strafe around them while attacking. You will see that it will become much easier to deal with them.

Cheers

[Evilsod]

Originally posted by jchardin64:

Right, I understand that learning the tactics is part of it. But remember the game is called Satisfactory, not Satisfightmonsters. I feel like resource gathering and manufacturing should be introduced first (if you choose Grasslands, at least) and then you can start learning to fight once you have a small base set up and need to start going farther to get the more advanced resources. If you don't mind getting attacked immediately and having to fight for your first resource node, then that's what the more difficult spawn locations are for.

I don't really know what to say about it...
The basic hog does 1 bar worth of damage. You might find 1 per patch for iron, copper and limestone at the start of the game (so 3). You'll probably also find tons of healing fruit.

Taking down lone hogs is a trivial matter, even if you do take some hits for it. Its not like you'll randomly get attacked halfway through creating your factory and have to fight for your life.

How much hand holding do you want? Stop pretending that having to fight 2 or 3 beasts suddenly turns this into a fighting game. It does not.

[The Chaotic Coder]

Originally posted by Evilsod:

Originally posted by jchardin64:

I don't really know what to say about it...
The basic hog does 1 bar worth of damage. You might find 1 per patch for iron, copper and limestone at the start of the game (so 3). You'll probably also find tons of healing fruit.

Taking down lone hogs is a trivial matter, even if you do take some hits for it. Its not like you'll randomly get attacked halfway through creating your factory and have to fight for your life.

How much hand holding do you want? Stop pretending that having to fight 2 or 3 beasts suddenly turns this into a fighting game. It does not.

I've used the resource scanner and tried to explore most of the Iron and Copper nodes in the area. I haven't found one that didn't have 2 Hogs on it or near it. I could keep exploring for miles to try to find one that's clear, but even doing that I often get ambushed by Hogs or Spitters in the wild.

You say a lone hog is a trivial matter, that's your opinion. As someone who doesn't play a lot of combat-oriented games, I find it more difficult. Fighting 2 at once (they usually come in pairs from what I've seen) is a lot harder. Made more so because the bushes sometimes get in the way and make it harder to see. Their hits do 1 bar of damage, but you can lose a lot more if they knock you off a cliff.

I don't want "hand holding" at all... there's a difference between challenging a new player with a learning curve, and just outright killing them 2 minutes into their first spawn because the inventory isn't unlocked yet.

Stop pretending that your opinions are universal. They are not.

[sansee]

Originally posted by Evilsod:

How much hand holding do you want?

Too many games are like that today so no wonder why many gamers are so used to it that they almost can't handle things on their own.

So unless the game tells them everything or guides them everywhere like a parents guides a child, they are unable to progress.

[Evilsod]

I guess you didn't notice that I agreed that disabling your inventory for the first 30 seconds or whatever it takes is a bit daft.

As for the combat... sorry, but that is about as basic as you can for combat. That isn't challenging a new player, that is setting a very low bar for combat 'prowess' that you apparently failed to meet. You can literally stand still and swing at the hogs as they charge you and take no damage.

Also, have you tried not standing with your back to a cliff...?

[The Chaotic Coder]

Originally posted by Evilsod:

I guess you didn't notice that I agreed that disabling your inventory for the first 30 seconds or whatever it takes is a bit daft.

As for the combat... sorry, but that is about as basic as you can for combat. That isn't challenging a new player, that is setting a very low bar for combat 'prowess' that you apparently failed to meet. You can literally stand still and swing at the hogs as they charge you and take no damage.

Also, have you tried not standing with your back to a cliff...?

There are a LOT of cliffs on the map, even in Grasslands. Just saying.

That's the tactic I'm using now, standing and waiting while they charge. About 3 times out of 10 I'm able to get the timing exactly right so they get stunned just before hitting me. Then there's about a 50% chance that I can get in 3 more hits before they run off and circle again. The rest of the time, I'm getting knocked this way and that, especially when there are 2 at a time.

I've had better luck with jumping over them while they charge, but that makes it harder strike at them. I'm getting better at it -- even now that I have a rebar gun I'm using the shocker on lesser enemies for practice and to save ammo.

I also figured out that you can jump on top of a Spitter and zap it over and over, and it usually won't be able to hit you.

Originally posted by sansee:

Originally posted by Evilsod:

How much hand holding do you want?

Too many games are like that today so no wonder why many gamers are so used to it that they almost can't handle things on their own.

So unless the game tells them everything or guides them everywhere like a parents guides a child, they are unable to progress.

As I said, I don't expect hand-holding. A learning curve by definition starts easy and gets harder.

[sansee]

Originally posted by jchardin64:

As I said, I don't expect hand-holding. A learning curve by definition starts easy and gets harder.

No, ok, what you propose IS, for all intents and purposes, to "dumb-down" the game. Without struggle there can be no satisfactory gain.

There's a reason why certain games make fun of gamers playing on "very easy", and also why these memes were created in the first place:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1ZtBCpo0eU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6k2N3gTYWY

[Evilsod]

Originally posted by jchardin64:

There are a LOT of cliffs on the map, even in Grasslands. Just saying.

If you define 'cliff' as the a 2 foot drop off the edge of something, then sure. There really aren't that many, and the ones that are big are obvious and you should have the awareness to not fight with your back to them. It's a mistake you don't make a second time. And based on what else you said... it sounds like you got the hang of it pretty quickly.

As I said, I don't expect hand-holding. A learning curve by definition starts easy and gets harder.

There is no simple definition of a learning curve. Some games start hard and get far easier once you get the hang of it.
Combat in this game starts off pretty damn easily, especially with how abundant healing food is in a lot of it.
Fighting one or two of the hog things is a far cry from the encounters you sometimes get around purple slugs against multiple high tier enemies at the same time, potentially also in hostile environments (radiation, gas, narrow bridges). but then by this time your fate is in your own hands.

[The Chaotic Coder]

Originally posted by Evilsod:

Originally posted by jchardin64:

There are a LOT of cliffs on the map, even in Grasslands. Just saying.

If you define 'cliff' as the a 2 foot drop off the edge of something, then sure. There really aren't that many, and the ones that are big are obvious and you should have the awareness to not fight with your back to them. It's a mistake you don't make a second time. And based on what else you said... it sounds like you got the hang of it pretty quickly.

Most of the time cliffs are obvious, but many of the cliffs are kind of hidden when you're above them. There are a lot of bushes and stuff that obscure vision, and I've almost walked right off the edge a few times before I knew the lay of the land. It's not like I'm looking at a topological map and saying "I want to get in a fight on this narrow ledge."

I did learn pretty quickly, but that was after a couple of times I almost gave up and asked for a refund. I don't know how common it is to get spawned in the middle of an enemy attack, but I can easily imagine some players getting a really bad impression of the game because of it.

Originally posted by sansee:

Originally posted by jchardin64:

As I said, I don't expect hand-holding. A learning curve by definition starts easy and gets harder.

No, ok, what you propose IS, for all intents and purposes, to "dumb-down" the game. Without struggle there can be no satisfactory gain.

There's a reason why certain games make fun of gamers playing on "very easy", and also why these memes were created in the first place:

[videos]

Well, I don't play games with the goal of winning approval from some YT channel. I have my own opinions about what having a good experience is, just like they do and just like you do. I respect yours, and you should respect mine. Also I notice in both of those videos they're talking about shooter games where the whole point is fighting enemies. This is a factory building game that happens to have a combat aspect, which is completely different.

Have any of you played Factorio? It has IMO the best system of enemy difficulty. There are several settings controlling how difficult the enemies are. Players (like me) who want to focus on building can do so with relatively little danger. New players can have the enemies turned off entirely. Hardcore players can use "deathworld" settings where the entire map is red with alien nests sending constant attack waves. All players can get the game experience they want -- that's what I'm proposing here.

Factorio uses procedural map generation, not a hand-crafted world, but the same concept could apply here. Make the Grasslands a little safer, easier to claim resource nodes without having to fight as much. Just cutting it down to 1 Hog per node instead of 2 would be great. Keep the difficulty of other biomes where it is, so players who like fighting a lot can start there.

[Mist of Majora]

Originally posted by jchardin64:

Originally posted by Evilsod:

Right, I understand that learning the tactics is part of it. But remember the game is called Satisfactory, not Satisfightmonsters.

Start a petition to change the name of the game to this. It's catchy.