E Ending Disappointment (MASSIVE spoilers)

[TheColorUrple]

Seriously, massive spoilers.


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Okay, so the E ending disappointed me, and I wanted to run my experience by fans to see if anyone reacted similarly.

So I banged my head against the credits for a while, thinking there would be checkpoints and that it was designed to be beatable. Because I was so concentrated on the task, I stopped paying attention to the messages after the first few deaths, and I didn't even realize they were real players. Figured they were just stupid text the devs threw in. Something about an empty stomach kept popping up? Whatever.

So I eventually googled to see if it was possible to solo, and the short answer is: possible but nearly impossible. I don't like admitting defeat, but I also don't like wasting my time, so of course I caved and asked for help.

After finishing the credits with the help of strangers, it came time to write a message for others. I chose something as a warning to other players. I don't remember the exact phrase, but it was something like "I've walked this path before, and therefore it's okay to give up." At least, that was the emotion behind it - sometimes it's okay to quit because a solo run would be a futile endeavor.

Pod 042 did not ask me if I wanted to delete my data. As I understand it, leaving this “negative” message for others is the reason I was not asked (because why would a person leaving an unhelpful message want to delete their data to help another?) and thus I missed the (by far) most impactful part of the ending and arguably the entire game. I may not have even realized that this data delete mechanic existed if I hadn't stumbled on it while reading about it later.

But the issue I have is that the "positive" responses - i.e. keep going! You can do it! One more try! - Those responses come across to me as trolling, because let's face it, getting through those credits alone would be literal hell for me and just about anybody. So it's okay to let go and ask for help. I actually crafted my message to help people - help them understand that letting go is the best option. I guess the devs disagreed.

So yeah, amazingly creative ending, but I'm still disappointed by the whole thing.

[myhr2]

Well, it's always easy to say "hey, if I had made this game, I would have made this and this change and it would have been muh better!"

I mean, no offense, but you apparently are in the minority of people that wanted to help but inadvertandly misinterpret how things work. At what point should you focus on one sentence to make yourself perfectly understand? Nobody has that kind of time. I'm not even sure it would be worth the effort, as the simplest things also get misunderstood constantly, and I'm including myself in that prospect, it's just...humans suck at communicating. ^^

[TheColorUrple]

Originally posted by myhr2:

Well, it's always easy to say "hey, if I had made this game, I would have made this and this change and it would have been muh better!"

I mean, no offense, but you apparently are in the minority of people that wanted to help but inadvertandly misinterpret how things work. At what point should you focus on one sentence to make yourself perfectly understand? Nobody has that kind of time. I'm not even sure it would be worth the effort, as the simplest things also get misunderstood constantly, and I'm including myself in that prospect, it's just...humans suck at communicating. ^^

Amen brother. I totally agree, I’m an armchair critic saying “durr I would do it this way.”

But to be fair, I’m not saying that because I misinterpreted (which I did) but because I think that even the people who were trolling or joking with their message should be given a chance to help. It seems more inclusive to me!

Nier is a game about flawed characters fighting a pointless war, lying to each other, and trying to find purpose, and the ending is about fighting against impossible odds together, even though we know the ultimate futility of that act. I think that message should extend to everybody playing the game because it really does apply to all of humanity, no matter what your moral character is like. Every human being has good in them!

But again, that’s just my view, and it’s still a great ending regardless.

[myhr2]

Mmmmh, what's the limit to being inclusive? Can you really excuse or forgive everything? Though questions, indeed.

Still glad that you got the message behind the ending, it's a great discussion subject, if nothing else.

[Ruukudesu_]

Originally posted by myhr2:

Mmmmh, what's the limit to being inclusive? Can you really excuse or forgive everything? Though questions, indeed.

Still glad that you got the message behind the ending, it's a great discussion subject, if nothing else.

I admire your calm responses, i could learn from you. I think what i want to argument is that words matter. I don't agree when you said: "At what point should you focus on one sentence to make yourself perfectly understand? Nobody has that kind of time." We do have that time, and good intentions don't mean ♥♥♥♥ when we don't care about how other people will receive things.

Therefore, sorry @TheColorUrple for beeing so aggressive, but i couldn't stand your snobby responses towards 🌹AEGIS✞IGNIS🌹 and in your EDIT via main post.

About ending E: I think it is just fair that bad sentences are punished because they are meant for other players who are "suffering because they cannot finish Nier:Automata", therefore it punishes the exact people who do not think of others with lack of closure. How creative.

[TheColorUrple]

Originally posted by Ruukudesu_:

Originally posted by myhr2:

Mmmmh, what's the limit to being inclusive? Can you really excuse or forgive everything? Though questions, indeed.

Still glad that you got the message behind the ending, it's a great discussion subject, if nothing else.

I admire your calm responses, i could learn from you. I think what i want to argument is that words matter. I don't agree when you said: "At what point should you focus on one sentence to make yourself perfectly understand? Nobody has that kind of time." We do have that time, and good intentions don't mean ♥♥♥♥ when we don't care about how other people will receive things.

Therefore, sorry @TheColorUrple for beeing so aggressive, but i couldn't stand your snobby responses towards 🌹AEGIS✞IGNIS🌹 and in your EDIT via main post.

About ending E: I think it is just fair that bad sentences are punished because they are meant for other players who are "suffering because they cannot finish Nier:Automata", therefore it punishes the exact people who do not think of others with lack of closure. How creative. :yorha:

I appreciate the apology - those are rare on the internet. I also apologize for being a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ to you and a few others. I’ve deleted the edit.

I have learned through this post that one of my triggers is when people post replies and comments before taking the time to absorb the information they’re replying to. I’ve done it; everyone has done it. In this situation I got upset that the only people responding were accusing me of general ignorance without taking the time to read the post that I had worked on.

That doesn’t excuse my behavior though.

You may be right about the ending. It may be a punishment - at the end of the day, humans feel good about themselves when they help others. So why should they be permitted to experience that good feeling and that closure when they’re unwilling to be kind in the first place? I think you’re onto something there.

@myhr2 Can you forgive everything? Maybe not. But what I find interesting is that 9S’s inability to forgive A2 is what leads to his downfall, and this is more or less the final scene of the game. I think there’s a message there that could have been expanded on in a positive way through the epilogue rather than a punishing one. Maybe it’s a higher goal to transform negativity into a willingness to help as opposed to returning it to the title screen.

Morality in such an existential story is in the eye of the beholder, and I think lots could have been done to expand on that theme, like perhaps giving the player some moral choices to make in the game and then - surprise! - tie them into the epilogue to force the player to reflect on the consequences of those decisions.

Maybe the delete data mechanic is not so much withheld as a punishment for negativity, but more as a reward offered to those who naturally took to heart the themes of the game. It’s the not the way I would have done it, but I can accept that design choice.

[Pax]

Originally posted by TheColorUrple:

Originally posted by 🌹AEGIS✞IGNIS🌹:

Okay so I googled it and apparently this is a thing, if you leave a comment the game judges to be negative you just don't get the option to sacrifice your data wow, do you even remember what your message was?

I encourage you to read my post.

Yeah saying its okay to consider giving up at that point in the game was always going to be judged as negative I guess, kinda goes against the whole point of the segment to fight fate and all that upbeat stuff.

I did read your post btw, got the gist of it and then forgot about that specific part when i came to reply a second time, no need

[Ruukudesu_]

Well, i was a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ too. Truly sorry. What i love about this game is, it is really emotional. The search for meaning, the dilemma of having a lack of it. The sadness, the anger, the joy, the composure. It is epicly affecting. I can not think of another game giving me these feelings again, therefore im a little in crisis, thank god there is real life too.

What you experience @TheColorUrple, that you lack closure, that you want to help people but have been denied because of a mistake. Isn't that what makes this end not disappointing but rather intriguing? It is the reason this thread exists and we connected through this after all.

[Ruukudesu_]

Also it is deeply philosophical in many aspects.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiOTSKBy6ME

[Archfiend]

Originally posted by TheColorUrple:

Writing a message, whether positive or negative, is such a benign, unimportant thing. I’m willing to bet that many people writing a negative or irrelevant message on purpose, as a joke or troll or whatever, would still sacrifice their data had they been asked. I think human beings are often willing to rise up to the occasion of truly helping somebody when it matters.

Here, the devs use this chance to help as a reward for good behavior, but that still doesn’t sit right with me. Had I designed the game, I would probably have given everyone a choice, but changed Pod 042’s dialogue depending on the message written. (Maybe asking more prodding questions about the player’s character and morality if they left a bad one.)

There's a lesson to be learned here. The words you use, just because YOU THINK they're benign and unimportant, ACTUALLY CAN have an impact on the people who read/hear them. Positivity feeds positivity, while negativity feeds negativity. "Just joking or trolling or whatever" might not have a malicious intent, but it normalizes meanness, whereas the entire point of the game is to get you to think about your part in humanity, and tearing down someone else, even if you don't mean it or you're just being lazy or funny, is contrary to that point.

[TheColorUrple]

Originally posted by Archfiend:

Originally posted by TheColorUrple:

Writing a message, whether positive or negative, is such a benign, unimportant thing. I’m willing to bet that many people writing a negative or irrelevant message on purpose, as a joke or troll or whatever, would still sacrifice their data had they been asked. I think human beings are often willing to rise up to the occasion of truly helping somebody when it matters.

Here, the devs use this chance to help as a reward for good behavior, but that still doesn’t sit right with me. Had I designed the game, I would probably have given everyone a choice, but changed Pod 042’s dialogue depending on the message written. (Maybe asking more prodding questions about the player’s character and morality if they left a bad one.)

There's a lesson to be learned here. The words you use, just because YOU THINK they're benign and unimportant, ACTUALLY CAN have an impact on the people who read/hear them. Positivity feeds positivity, while negativity feeds negativity. "Just joking or trolling or whatever" might not have a malicious intent, but it normalizes meanness, whereas the entire point of the game is to get you to think about your part in humanity, and tearing down someone else, even if you don't mean it or you're just being lazy or funny, is contrary to that point.

That’s a good point, but consider that there’s no overt consequence for meanness; missing an ending won’t impact you unless you become aware of that ending by external factors outside of the game.

I was playing devil’s advocate here. I wrote a message that I *thought* was positive, which was a misinterpretation. But even so, in the case of an actual troll trying to be mean or snarky, I maintain that it would be great for the devs to not punish meanness, but instead hold up a mirror to it and say “Here’s what you look like, now wouldn’t it feel better to be kind and giving instead?” That’s why I suggested somewhere in this topic that Pod 042 call out the meanness with different dialogue and then still give the player the opportunity to redeem themselves with a helpful action.

[slartibartfast]

Yep, this happened to me too. I intentionally left a roasting message though because I thought it's hilarious that the game allowed me to do that, and thus I didn't get the option haha. I'm guessing it should be available if done again via chapter select? No?

[TheSeek]

Originally posted by freekill:

I'm guessing it should be available if done again via chapter select? No?

Yes