[Open Discussion] The Android Anatomy in NieR:Automata

[af]

For the more sciencey people, the anatomy of an android in NieR:Automata has likely been a major mystery. The story indicates they are capable of many human like features such as pain perception, drinking or eating (possibly even digestion of some sort), and even showing emotion. This thread is an open discussion for exploring the anatomy of the android body.

[For people who want more info about the three features provided above]
Pain - this is a given. However, whether they feel pain or simply are told by their sensors that there is damage to their anatomy, this is a different topic.
Drinking and eating - Operator 6O stated she “asked someone out for lunch”...whatever “lunch” is for an android. Additionally, (minor spoiler, if it even is a spoiler), Devola is an alcoholic.
Emotion - this is also a given. However, how emotions are perceived by the characters specifically in comparison to human minds, similar to pain perception, deals with altered states of consciousness - a whole new topic.

Android by definition is a humanoid machine (tech/robotics/engineering specialists, help me out here if there are other details we can add). It seems to be the androids in the story are similar to the robots seen in classic films such as the Terminator series, just that in NieR, androids are much more advanced. The interpretation I offer specifically is about their cognitive ability and mental capacity. It seems to be that the androids in NieR:Automata are a result of a modern day project in the neuroscience field called The Connectome Project.

For those who have never heard of this project before, it is a neurological project currently in development that is attempting to map the entire human brain on a computer. The question then arises, if the neural pathways and features of the human brain are copied onto a computer in the form of digital data, does the computer become a human? It further extends into other debates such as whether consciousness or the soul are part of the brain or if they even exist at all.

In the world of Nier:Automata, it seems to be that projects such as The Connectome Project succeeded and served as the precursor to Project YoRHa. By copying the ability of the human brain into the form of digital data, computers could then, at the very least, act like people. To make androids, the brain data translated into digital data could have been placed into humanoid machines. Pain perception could also be simulated in a mechanical body, even if pain perception may have differed to how humans perceived it. Emotions could be displayed through the reaction the data is programmed to evoke when a certain stimulus is perceived by the programming in the android body.

By converting brain features into digital data, special ideas such as “the soul” ultimately seem to be neurons or matter in a special form to provide us with what is called self awareness or consciousness. Through the above interpretation, NieR:Automata’s world seems to be nihilistic to a whole new level. I am not sure how much Yoko Taro thought about the science behind the android anatomy. However, after thinking further about the way androids are built, it was fascinating and I kept prying further at what possibilities there were.

It would be extremely helpful if there were an official source from the publishers of the story to expand on this part of the lore. So far, there seems to be no written rule on how the android body functions. If someone does have any useful, official info, please comment below. Until then, this topic is open to discussion. Make sure however to backup ideas with at least some scientific basis. For info containing spoilers, please use the blackout formatting function. What do you think the android anatomy is like? What are some other major questions you had about the way the androids function?

Updates on community's analysis of the android anatomy

I have kept track and updated everything we have discussed as a community so far on the android anatomy. So far we have:

• The brain: Other than my original post, this part hasn't been touched on much, yet.
  
• Digestive system: Maybe?
  
  Clues
  • Devola is an alcoholic
    
  • Eating mackerel
    
  • Operator 6O inviting a coworker for "lunch"
• Circulatory system: Maybe? Possibly some form of hydraulic fluid.
  
  • Blood
• Reproductive system: [Confirmed by Yoko Taro] Androids can have genitalia if they decide to have such modifications. However, the genitalia will not be organic. One member has suggested the idea that maybe hacking is involved with the reproduction process (hack the egg cell like portion of a female genitalia in a female android).
  
• Speech Input and Output: Radio/transmission, "gibberish" language seen in the game, possibly even the use of digital telepathy.
  
• High heels: Not for practical combat use, but rather for appeal. Yoko Taro explained in an interview that he simply went wild with creativity. He said, "human civilizations thousands of years ago couldn't imagine what our civilization would be like, so I decided there would be no constraints to what 2B would be wearing." Not scientific, but an explanation we can remember.
  
• Blindfold - most of us already know what it is and that it isn't a "blindfold" but that it is instead a standard issue military visor.

[pavel-polosin]

Oprindeligt skrevet af af:

Some people seem to think such physical changes are not just physical but "something else." This is what I meant when I stated "whether they genuinely feel pain or are simply told by their sensors there is damage to their anatomy." This is where my nihilism kicks in and proposes that no, there is nothing else other than our biological circuits telling us something is wrong, that everything is ultimately physical.

I think it's more an ethical question than a scientific one.

Presence of emotions, allows me to suggest that androids have, sort of neuroendocrine system. So, the question is: what synthetic component can be the basis of this "simulated hormone"

Same as you I've always woundered about androids anatomy. So I created topic on reddit (before I found your thread). I'll post my thoughts and questions from my reddit topic here, if you don't mind?

After finishing novela "A Much Too Silent Sea"( https://theark.wiki/w/A_Much_Too_Silent_Sea ), my understanding of internal structure of the android body, becomes to dead end. (not that I was an expert before)

So, let' take a look on information what this novela gives us:

I. Androids needs asleep. My question is: "Why?". I thought they don't need any rest, instead of this, they need a electric energy, like mashines. How it actually working? Also. I remember Jackass told something about antipsychotic drugs (please correct me, if it's wrong), it means that androids have, sort of neuroendocrine system? It's amazing! What synthetic component can be the basis? Sooo interesting!

II. Androids can eat/drink. 10H had breackfast every day. She said that androids can survive without food, but POD 006 assured her that regular eating will be healthy. So, that means androids have digestive system?( with all the consequences ) If it's true, it means that human-like nutrition is an alternative way of obtaining energy for Android, and what the basic way to get energy? (+ I heard somewhere that androids in Nier: automata needs to drink water, or maybie it's just a fiction or dream)

III. Androids are heavy. 2B's weight is 148.8kg. - https://nier.fandom.com/wiki/YoRHa_No.2_Type_B 9S's weight is 129.9kg. - https://nier.fandom.com/wiki/YoRHa_No.9_Type_S A2's weight is 139.2kg. - https://nier.fandom.com/wiki/YoRHa_Type_A_No.2 The novel contains a mention of YoRHa units weight(it's near 150kg.) This applies to YoRHa units only, or it also works on regular androids like Anemone, and others?

IV. Wound regeneration. Can't remeber what novela describes a 2B's regeneration with the help of nanorobots, but I can swear that I saw this scene. How do you think this nanorobots working? Does this mean that androids do not need mechanical repairs and replacement parts?

Androids in this game are very, very strange, what makes this game world special. EDITED: V. Androids needs breath??? Remember that 2B have strangled 9S? How it can be explained? Is that means that androids may die from asphyxia? This automatically means that android can be drowned!

P.S. Special thank to Luminous White, for his great lection. Seriously comrad, that was great, I got a lot of "thinking fuel", after reading your post.

P.S.S. Dear Af (if you will ever return to your thread), can you explain why the gradient nature of charges in neurons, is contrary to the binary system of neurons? And how does this prove the "quantum theory of brain's neurons"?

Let's imagine the minimum value of the neuron charge (synaptic weight) force required for neurons to accept the position "1" or "yes" is 0.6. The current charge of the neuron is 0.4, hence the neurons take the position "0", or "no". I took the method of programming a neural network in Python as a basis. In this case, it is a binary scheme of neurons.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trolling you, or smth, I just very much doubt the truth of the "quantum theory of the brain".

Also, in your discuss about androids brain, you guys forgot a very important moment: the microchips that we can attach to the systemboard to improve the ability of the character. This proves that the brain of Android is not quite like that of a human.

[af]

Oprindeligt skrevet af pavel-polosin:

P.S.S. Dear Af (if you will ever return to your thread), can you explain why the gradient nature of charges in neurons, is contrary to the binary system of neurons? And how does this prove the "quantum theory of brain's neurons"?

Let's imagine the minimum value of the neuron charge (synaptic weight) force required for neurons to accept the position "1" or "yes" is 0.6. The current charge of the neuron is 0.4, hence the neurons take the position "0", or "no". I took the method of programming a neural network in Python as a basis. In this case, it is a binary scheme of neurons.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trolling you, or smth, I just very much doubt the truth of the "quantum theory of the brain".

Also, in your discuss about androids brain, you guys forgot a very important moment: the microchips that we can attach to the systemboard to improve the ability of the character. This proves that the brain of Android is not quite like that of a human.

First of all, thank you for your answer; an indepth answer as well. I'm glad to see this thread came back to life.

The non-binary concept I was discussing was regarding the gradient of ions which travels through nerve cells. The method to indicate firing and lack of firing of a cell by "1" or "0" is still completely practical. When discussing how well the human brain is replicated to evoke android behavior, there is no guarantee the current computational system is an accurate enough mirror. One of the mechanisms which may be overlooked is the flux of ions through a nerve cell. Hyperpolarization and depolarization do not occur instantly. If observed with a slower frame rate, the activation of a cell is a gradient.

Unlike the instant state change of 1 and 0, nerve cells generate a gradient which leads to a state of change. It can be compared to any process which has a time lag between two states such as an empty bottle being filled to the brim. The question is if the gradient of the water level rising in the bottle contributes at all to neurological output, such as behavior.

Another non-binary concern was how some nerve cells fire "more" than others. Some have more influence by emitting more neurotransmitters, more influential neurotransmitters. Some nerve cells act as nothing but modulators which can't activate other cells unless activated by another (meaning they can't be artificially stimulated then affect another cells as much as it would if a connecting neuron's synaptic weight activated said modulator cell). Using the method of synaptic weight would solve this issue, so this concern has been mostly dispelled.

At the moment, computational neuroscience still succeeds to mimic aspects of human behavior and cognition. However, when stretching the complexity of cognition to the point of consciousness or android behavior, there is no guarantee our current systems have small enough units to map every depth of neural activity. It is why one of the methods for computation I have discussed with some at my current institute is the approach of weights. The "quantum" nature of neurobiology lies in the question pointing more at the even smaller aspects of the brain's connectome which may be more crucial than expected. I cannot prove this is actually significant for android behavioral output - perhaps the human brain (in terms of what is observable from a human standard) may be much more easy to replicate than we may imagine.

It would be great to see what ideas your reddit topic had. If you can, could you provide the link to the thread? It would be greatly appreciated.

[Prolixus]

Well, an interesting thread has been brought back to life indeed. I do not claim to have any relevent knowledge or expertise in the area, I just want to share some thoughts your post generated.

Oprindeligt skrevet af pavel-polosin:

I think it's more an ethical question than a scientific one.

Presence of emotions, allows me to suggest that androids have, sort of neuroendocrine system. So, the question is: what synthetic component can be the basis of this "simulated hormone"

I do not believe this should necessarily be the case. I mean a mountain of science-fiction literature explores the idea that highly sophisticated Artificial Intelligence can even develop or replicate human emotions. Following this line of thought, it is entirely possible that androids have emotions without having any reminiscence of the human brain or traces of a neuroendorcrine system.

Oprindeligt skrevet af pavel-polosin:

I. Androids needs asleep. My question is: "Why?". I thought they don't need any rest, instead of this, they need a electric energy, like mashines. How it actually working? Also. I remember Jackass told something about antipsychotic drugs (please correct me, if it's wrong), it means that androids have, sort of neuroendocrine system? It's amazing! What synthetic component can be the basis? Sooo interesting!

I think there can be parallels to be drawn here. The human brain essentially needs sleep to perform maintenance, right? Maybe androids need to sleep for the very same reason. Although I have to admit, the idea of chemical compounds affecting the android consciousness/mind definitely somewhat refutes this concept that I have just raised.

Oprindeligt skrevet af pavel-polosin:

II. Androids can eat/drink. 10H had breackfast every day. She said that androids can survive without food, but POD 006 assured her that regular eating will be healthy. So, that means androids have digestive system?( with all the consequences ) If it's true, it means that human-like nutrition is an alternative way of obtaining energy for Android, and what the basic way to get energy?

Energy conversion (or whatever it is called)? On a molecular level, food is used to produce chemical energy in the form of ATP (among others, but mostly ATP). Maybe chemical energy can be transformed into electrical energy (with losses during the conversion of course). And that is why androids can survive without food, but eating might actually be good for them (another jolt of energy into their body). But then again, I might be oversimplifying things.

Oprindeligt skrevet af pavel-polosin:

Also, in your discuss about androids brain, you guys forgot a very important moment: the microchips that we can attach to the systemboard to improve the ability of the character. This proves that the brain of Android is not quite like that of a human.

Again, this does not necessarily proves that. To me, this is more of a conjecture or extrapolation (and I do not mean this offensively, please do not take it that way).

This only proves that the system which serves as the basis for their mind uses chips. But chips can work together with brain cells (in science-fiction at least). Lots of works deal with the idea of this holy fusion: computers and brains merged together, working as one, exceeding and superseding both, creating a new era of mankind etc.

For me, the bottom line is that this whole topic is very contradictory, some facts point us to the direction that androids do possess a system that is somewhat similar to or have features of the human brain, while others point us to the opposite direction. I think this topic might not have been thought through by Taro in very much detail, or he just didn't care about the contradictions or plot holes...went with the ideas that he fancied. But as long as he makes such wonderful and thought-provokig games, there is nothing wrong with that.

I barely have time for games nowadays, but somehow I am very often reminded how magnificent it was to fully experience NieR: Automata.

[Banan]

Diden't read all the comments here.. but i will write few of my thoughts.
Physiology:
Quite simple... They can eat--->they have to have a digestive system --->if they have digestive system, they have to have Circulatory system ---> if they have a Circulatory system (they have blood)---> they have to have, a Urinary system (so.. 2B can poop/pee) ---> if they have a urinary system, they COULD have a Reproductive system.

About the blindfolds... for my there is no military use for them.. rather a philosophy use..
-Only Yorha androids were clothing that hides some part of the body.
-Yorha combat units are "soldiers" they don't have to "see" the truth, just follow orders (blindfolds).
-Yorha operatiors have they lips covered, they KNOW/SEE the truth but, can't speak about it.
-Yorha commander dosen't have covered eyes or mouth. She knows the truth and can speak about it.

[pavel-polosin]

Oprindeligt skrevet af af:

It would be great to see what ideas your reddit topic had. If you can, could you provide the link to the thread? It would be greatly appreciated.

Sure. https://www.reddit.com/r/nier/comments/bmz6pw/spoiler_anatomy_of_androids/

Anyway I still don't understand how "gradient method" can refute a "binary method" if we still gets 0 or 1 on exit. Or maybe I have not enough knowlage.

Another moment I wanted to ask. Neurotransmitters existing proves the syntetic blood existing, in androids is't it? Not simply red paint, just for human imitation.

[Nanashi]

Ok!
So I've read most of the posts and still I have some questions and doubts.
Reproductive system: supposing that they could procreate, it's hard to imagine how then the process would result in a new android coming to existance.
I can hardly believe it could be auto built by the female android, therefore we have to suppose that the act of procreation, hacking the egg cell etc., would only serve the purpose of generating a quantity of data that would need to be uploaded to a structure capable of building the android bodies, supposedly the bunker.
Circulatory system: while playing as A2 at a certain point we have to complete a mission in which she needs a new filter for her fuel and therefore we discover that androids are not simply energized by the black box, but they also need some kind of fuel and they also use oil as a lubricant.
In this way they are different from bio machines like Adam, who can lose blood.
When 9s is stuck on a wall by Adam in the copied city, we can see blood on it all around him, however, we have to consider that what we see might be no blood, but oil or fuel.
How and why they do feel tired from time to time is also a mystery, is it only a way to imitate human behaviour?
Having confirmed that they can supposedly eat although there are foods that they cannot safely eat but we don't have any clue on what they can safely eat or drink, there's another mystery that remains to be solved.
In one of the main endings, 2B strangles 9S in order to kill him, but does she just break his neck, or does she stop him from breathing?
Therefore we'd have to suppose that androids need to breath?
How much of them is biological and how much is just metal and circuits?
In the scene where 2B and 9S launch with the wings (flying units) they launch from the bunker and travel through the space orbit and the earth atmosphere at a very high speed.
In space there's no air and the flying units have no cockpits, while in the high earth atmosphere the air is very rarefied and anyway traveling at that speed for a human being it would be impossible to breath, it would be just like trying to breath while traveling on a airplane with the cabin exposed to the wind.
Therefore in conclusion is more logical to suppose that 2B just breaks his neck to interrupt 9S circuits and that androids don't need to breath.