more pistol types

[jellyjoker]

Now I loves me some wheelie guns and I know we have the .22s, but I would love some more variety in pistol types. Maybe some semi-autos like the 1911 and the Glock?

[Atech66]

A 1911 would be a cool alternative to the DLC 45 revolver.
Maybe a Ruger 57 5.7X28 :)
Or a 50 cal

[gabcik&kubis]

Originally posted by jellyjoker:

Now I loves me some wheelie guns and I know we have the .22s, but I would love some more variety in pistol types. Maybe some semi-autos like the 1911 and the Glock?

Can you get like 10 meters from roe deer to make an effective shot?
Otherwise those pistols are useless. Classic pistols are good for self-defense, not hunting.
Wanna more pistols? Ask for the ones like some BIG revolvers, TC Contender, Wildey. Those at least make sense.

[Hanuman]

+1

[boogadooga]

Originally posted by gabcik&kubis:

Originally posted by jellyjoker:

Now I loves me some wheelie guns and I know we have the .22s, but I would love some more variety in pistol types. Maybe some semi-autos like the 1911 and the Glock?

Can you get like 10 meters from roe deer to make an effective shot?
Otherwise those pistols are useless. Classic pistols are good for self-defense, not hunting.
Wanna more pistols? Ask for the ones like some BIG revolvers, TC Contender, Wildey. Those at least make sense.

Fiocchi Ammunition Features and Specifications:
Caliber: .45 ACP
Category: Centerfire
Bullet Weight: 230 Grains
Bullet Type: Full Metal Jacket
Bullet Ballistic Coefficient: 0.184
Muzzle Velocity: 860 fps
Muzzle Energy: 390 ft/lbs

you really think .45 wont reliably punch the ribs of a whitetail at 25 yards? heck, im sure you can find plenty of hunting videos of killshots with even 9x19mm.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymnH2g3htAg&ab_channel=AaronLaw



heres one such video

[boogadooga]

NO! FUDD GUN ONLY REEEEEEEE!

[gabcik&kubis]

Originally posted by Free Mah Bois!:

you really think .45 wont reliably punch the ribs of a whitetail at 25 yards? heck, im sure you can find plenty of hunting videos of killshots with even 9x19mm.

I wrote it more than once already - there is documented case of killing (young) elephant with .22lr
That doesn't make it effective dangerous game round.
Pistol round under good condition can kill fairly big animal. But conditions are rarely ideal. Pistol rounds are not that powerful, when expansion ones are used their penetration drops and there is one bigger issue - stability and sights picture:
- you cannot get same stability of the weapon for pistol as you can get in case of the rifle
- rifles are scoped and in case of iron sights their length is several times bigger than for ordinary handgun - once again increased natural accuracy

Yes, USA are somehow more liberal when it comes to hunting than i.e. Europe but from what I have seen it is somehow more tolerant to possible not-human kills. Also it is more prone to various hunts that serves to attract attention to hunter like nonsense ultralong range shots, under-effective weapons and so on.

[boogadooga]

Originally posted by gabcik&kubis:

Originally posted by Free Mah Bois!:

you really think .45 wont reliably punch the ribs of a whitetail at 25 yards? heck, im sure you can find plenty of hunting videos of killshots with even 9x19mm.

I wrote it more than once already - there is documented case of killing (young) elephant with .22lr
That doesn't make it effective dangerous game round.
Pistol round under good condition can kill fairly big animal. But conditions are rarely ideal. Pistol rounds are not that powerful, when expansion ones are used their penetration drops and there is one bigger issue - stability and sights picture:
- you cannot get same stability of the weapon for pistol as you can get in case of the rifle
- rifles are scoped and in case of iron sights their length is several times bigger than for ordinary handgun - once again increased natural accuracy

Yes, USA are somehow more liberal when it comes to hunting than i.e. Europe but from what I have seen it is somehow more tolerant to possible not-human kills. Also it is more prone to various hunts that serves to attract attention to hunter like nonsense ultralong range shots, under-effective weapons and so on.

What you suggest implies that anything less than a .50bmg rifle on a fixed tripod at no more than 100 yards is acceptable. the whole point of trophy hunting is the challenge (otherwise there would be no bow or blackpowder hunters).

-nope you sure cant get the same stability off hand with a pistol as you would with a rifle. fine, by that logic they should remove all the other pistols in the game.

-scoped handguns are pretty common and are even already featured in game. yeah the sight radius generally is longer on a rifle than it is on a handgun, longer things are longer (who would have thought). They dont have to be sub MOA accurate at 100 yards, just minute of deer lungs @ 50 yards. The term you're looking for is "Mechanical accuracy". Once again, there is no reason a semiautomatic pistol in a common round shouldnt be considered as perfectly reasonable within the limits of the caliber.

the only real difference for the game would be the ammunition rating and being semi auto would make for faster followup shots if you botch a hit.

[gabcik&kubis]

Originally posted by Free Mah Bois!:

What you suggest implies that anything less than a .50bmg rifle on a fixed tripod at no more than 100 yards is acceptable. the whole point of trophy hunting is the challenge (otherwise there would be no bow or blackpowder hunters).

-nope you sure cant get the same stability off hand with a pistol as you would with a rifle. fine, by that logic they should remove all the other pistols in the game.

-scoped handguns are pretty common and are even already featured in game. yeah the sight radius generally is longer on a rifle than it is on a handgun, longer things are longer (who would have thought). They dont have to be sub MOA accurate at 100 yards, just minute of deer lungs @ 50 yards. The term you're looking for is "Mechanical accuracy". Once again, there is no reason a semiautomatic pistol in a common round shouldnt be considered as perfectly reasonable within the limits of the caliber.

the only real difference for the game would be the ammunition rating and being semi auto would make for faster followup shots if you botch a hit.

While Reductio ad absurdum is not always without some merits and neither inevitably leading to nonsense - it only works that way when used very carefully. That was not your case. Unfortunately.
I've never said that rabbit should be hunted with at least 0.5 Mt nuclear warhead, I just said what is well known - there are some thresholds for effective human kill of the animal and self-defense pistols designed to disable man-sized attacker at very close range are not among them.
Use of ineffective tools is not challenge, it is ignorance. Why US policemen are trained to keep shooting? Because they know that handguns are not so effective

Target revolver with long barrel is different beast than primitive pistol and rudimentary iron sights as the one from your video. Besides I am no big fun of the handguns as hunting tools. And some basic 1911 or 92f are already out of question

Trouble is that .45ACP or 9mm Luger are already below common sense requirements for hunting.

[hunterPRO1]

45acp/9mil can definitely kill a deer under 50m. both would be a good class 2-5 or 7 addition. (i say 7 because bear defense, but i wouldnt want to use it on a red stag or grizzly unless i needed to so idk)

[Armus]

"Hunting" semi-auto pistols usually come in 10 mm Auto, with 6" barrels and reasonably accurate sights. Given the power and accuracy of such pistols it should be possible to hunt with them ethically out to 50-100 m (depending on actual accuracy and bullet used). They are no basic self defence pistols, that's for sure.

[gabcik&kubis]

Originally posted by hunterPRO1:

45acp/9mil can definitely kill a deer under 50m. both would be a good class 2-5 or 7 addition. (i say 7 because bear defense, but i wouldnt want to use it on a red stag or grizzly unless i needed to so idk)

And .22lr CAN kill even elephant with certain amount of luck. CAN equals not impossible .
But not impossible is not effective .

Originally posted by Armus:

"Hunting" semi-auto pistols usually come in 10 mm Auto, with 6" barrels and reasonably accurate sights. Given the power and accuracy of such pistols it should be possible to hunt with them ethically out to 50-100 m (depending on actual accuracy and bullet used). They are no basic self defence pistols, that's for sure.

So sights length of 10-12 cm on pistol versus ~50 cm on rifle? Is front post designed for long range shots? Unless so your sight picture is going to hide whole object.
And simple geometry - any deviation of muzzle is multiplied by bigger factor that for rifle. 1 mm for rifle might be 10 cm at 100 meters but for pistol it is i.e. 5-times more.

When it comes to energy - fairly weak .223 Rem is 1,5-2x more powerful than 10 mm auto at muzzle and it will have better energy retention over the distance. But it is not going to have enough energy for i.e. local legal minimum for deer (that is set for good reason as energy at 100 meters, sometimes combined with bullet weight / diameter). As even muzzle energy for 10mm is below this requirement.

P.S. quick check, from article about limits of several countries in Europe
- roe deer: cca. 1000 J / 100 m
- deer, boar etc. cca. 2000 J / 100 m
- moose, bear cca. 2700 J / 100 m
often for deer at least 6.5 mm or even bigger diameter and some bullet weight limits. 10mm auto at 100 m is 500J and less.

[Armus]

@gabcik&kubis:

Just to have some clarity, some sight radius numbers*:

1911 in 10 mm with 6" (~15 cm) barrel:
20 cm (~8") sights radius (average max range ~100 m)

AR15 with mid length gas system:
43 cm (17") sight radius (average max range ~300 m)

Kar 98k:
50 cm (~20")sight radius (average max range ~400 m)

*note: all numbers are just approximations for the sake of comparison

Some problems I have with your take:
1. You are still using regular carry pistol lengths and their sight radius
2. Accurate shots with some pistols are perfectly doable out to 100 m
3. You are using the rather extreme measure for energy requirements (European hunting standards) as a base for your reasoning

As shown above, sight radius is about double of what you are suggesting and energy requirements are not absolute in terms of actual performance, in fact they are usually at least doubled, to ensure ethical hunting (most hunters are not such great shots as you might think). But anyway, you seem a bit lost in numbers so I'll just quote a piece from an article I mostly agree with:

"Everything about the 10mm Auto that made it “too much gun” for the FBI makes it a great choice for hunting, especially the “long slide” versions with 6-inch barrels. That extra inch of barrel length produces an extra 35 to 50 f.p.s. in muzzle velocity, depending on the ammo used. Full power 10mm loads produce external ballistics approaching those of the .41 Magnum, and when loaded with hunting-proven bullets provide excellent performance on deer-, hog- and black bear-sized game from short range. Our comfort level with this cartridge’s ballistics is generally 60-yards and under. Can you stretch it out further? Sure you can, but this isn’t a magic bullet, and (most of the time) you’re not dealing with rifle-like precision…ethical hunting practices need to be strongly considered when hunting with a handgun."

Source: ontargetmagazine - top long slide 10 mm hunting pistols*
*Am trying to avoid Steam URL checks problems, use 'net search to find the page.

60 yards is 54 meters. Is the energy below that of rifles at 100 m? Yep. Would I recommend to the average hunter to shoot at animals at that distance? No. I mentioned 50-100 m simply as a possible range. Please note they estimate it has excellent performance up to black bear sized game.

I understand your concerns on the matter and believe me I am not indifferent to it for personal reasons, but I assure you that the pistol can be a valid hunting weapon.

[jellyjoker]

Originally posted by gabcik&kubis:

Can you get like 10 meters from roe deer to make an effective shot?

I don't think I've shot an animal in the game at over 80 yards, closest was a bow shot at about 6 yards.