Difficulty rating/Actual difficulty in scoring

[KaiEr]

It would be nice to see some sort of skill award when calculating trophy. I mean if ethical consideration is to be used in calculating trophy score, why not add in the difficulty rating (which is set up a bit strange), as well as the actual difficulty in the shot.

Right now you have animals with high difficulty ratings that score low and low difficulty rated animals that can score high. I get the whole randomness of nature and all, but normally an animal that has become difficult to hunt is one that has been around a while – and thus more than likely a trophy animal.

That’s just one part of what I’m suggesting. The other part is the actual difficulty in harvesting the animal.

The same animal will score the same whether the shot is from 1y in broad daylight or 300y in the middle of the night. Again, I understand that has nothing to do with the actual trophy… but neither does consecutive harvests or how quickly it dies.

[Rookie-31st]

Originally posted by KaiEr:

I mean if ethical consideration is to be used in calculating trophy score, why not add in the difficulty rating (which is set up a bit strange), as well as the actual difficulty in the shot.

You are confusing terms, there is no trophy score in the game - there is harvest score which is based on three 'ethical' bonuses and trophy rating, as well as possibly some other factors such as hit.

Concerning animal difficulty level, it is not primary factor but only indication of higher chance to get higher trophy rating. For example, you can spot black bear with trophy rating range 18-21. They can be different levels, from 5 to 7. Level 5 black bear with trophy range 18-21 most probably has trophy rating no more than 18. It won't give you Gold score, you need at least 19 for a Gold so you should look for black bear level 6 and higher because they should have trophy rating at least 19. Also, level 5 black bear might be smaller and have trophy rating 15-18 as well, I did harvest level 5 bears with trophy ratings both 17 and 18. So, same difficulty level might have different trophy rating.

There is also weight. Larger animals usually have higher trophy rating. Higher difficulty level animals tend to be larger and have more value in terms of trophy, and at least trophy rating has direct effect on harvest score. Difficulty level itself does not appear to be part of harvest score calculation formula.

[KaiEr]

Originally posted by rookie31st:

Originally posted by KaiEr:

I mean if ethical consideration is to be used in calculating trophy score, why not add in the difficulty rating (which is set up a bit strange), as well as the actual difficulty in the shot.

You are confusing terms, there is no trophy score in the game - there is harvest score which is based on three 'ethical' bonuses and trophy rating, as well as possibly some other factors such as hit.

Concerning animal difficulty level, it is not primary factor but only indication of higher chance to get higher trophy rating. For example, you can spot black bear with trophy rating range 18-21. They can be different levels, from 5 to 7. Level 5 black bear with trophy range 18-21 most probably has trophy rating no more than 18. It won't give you Gold score, you need at least 19 for a Gold so you should look for black bear level 6 and higher because they should have trophy rating at least 19. Also, level 5 black bear might be smaller and have trophy rating 15-18 as well, I did harvest level 5 bears with trophy ratings both 17 and 18. So, same difficulty level might have different trophy rating.

There is also weight. Larger animals usually have higher trophy rating. Higher difficulty level animals tend to be larger and have more value in terms of trophy, and at least trophy rating has direct effect on harvest score. Difficulty level itself does not appear to be part of harvest score calculation formula.

Not really confusing terms, just a matter of semantics. I understand how the things work. It’s sort of funny, but you went into all that explanation, which I completely understand, only to finish your comment by making the same point I was trying to make.

My point is that I think it SHOULD have an effect on scoring calculation.

The difficult level is more than just an indication of trophy rating… there IS a trophy rating. Difficulty is… well… how difficult the animal is to hunt. If there are two animals of the same trophy rating, but different difficulty, your trophy rating remains the same.

And if ethics are used in calculating the score, why on earth wouldn’t the difficulty in harvesting the animal be included?

It’s also just plain silly to see a high trophy scoring animal with a difficulty rating of 3, standing beside an extremely low trophy scoring animal with a difficulty rating of 6. Again – difficulty really means nothing in game (other than how difficult an animal is to kill). Why not have high difficulty rated does if that’s how it’s going to be?

[Rookie-31st]

If there are two animals of the same trophy rating, but different difficulty, your trophy rating remains the same.

i've seen same difficulty level with different trophy rating, but not vice verse. Not really sure it is possible in the game

It’s also just plain silly to see a high trophy scoring animal with a difficulty rating of 3, standing beside an extremely low trophy scoring animal with a difficulty rating of 6.

Definitely not the case in this game. Trophy and weight have direct correlation with difficulty. High trophy rating animal will never have lower difficulty level than low trophy rating animal.

Difficulty level is not used to calculate score, but it determines animal behaviour, making high trophy rating animals harder to hunt. Thus, it is already indirect part of the scoring system.

[KaiEr]

Originally posted by rookie31st:

If there are two animals of the same trophy rating, but different difficulty, your trophy rating remains the same.

i've seen same trophy rating with different difficulty level, but not vice verse. Not really sure it is possible in the game

It’s also just plain silly to see a high trophy scoring animal with a difficulty rating of 3, standing beside an extremely low trophy scoring animal with a difficulty rating of 6.

Definitely not the case in this game. Trophy and weight have direct correlation with difficulty. High trophy rating animal will never have lower difficulty level than low trophy rating animal.

Difficulty level is not used to calculate score, but it determines animal behaviour, making high trophy rating animals harder to hunt. Thus, it is already indirect part of the scoring system.

Ok, you’re right as to the confusion; there was some confusion between us when I said “trophy score” instead of simply “score” or “overall score”. I was not confusing it with trophy rating. My initial point was that difficulty should be reflected in the overall score. You’re basically saying it is, but indirectly.

(To avoid any confusion, let’s say that all of the examples from now on are with animals taken with 100% ethical bonuses.)

Tell me if I’m missing something: You hold that while a higher trophy rating may not always mean higher difficulty rating, higher difficulty rating always means higher trophy rating (as you move up the scale of difficulty). In other words (using simple numbers) a 1-2 trophy rated boar and a 2-3 trophy rated boar might be 2 – Minor difficulty, but you won’t find a 1-2 trophy rated boar in the 3 – Very Easy difficulty level at the same time a 2-3 trophy rated boar is in the 2 – Minor difficulty level. Right?

And you hold that, since this is the case, the difficulty is indirectly part of the score. I hold that either/all of that is incorrect.

For the sake of argument, let’s say you are right and that a lower trophy rated animal will never be more difficult than a higher trophy rated animal (even though I disagree – at least in relation to when you spot them, and maybe not after the fact when you harvest them). Let’s say that the higher the difficulty level, the higher the trophy rating (and therefore score).

If that’s true, then give me some sort of explanation for these:
(Screen shots below)

I’ve got a/an…

Boar with a score of 984 and a trophy rating of 154.
Elk with a score of 957 and a trophy rating of 369.
Moose with a score of 960 and a trophy rating of 225.

All of them are Diamond scoring with a difficulty rating of 5 – Medium, and all have 100% ethical bonuses.

(Let’s put the ‘Diamond’ bit on the back burner for a moment.)

You hold that any of these species of animals with a difficulty rating OVER 5 would have an equal or higher trophy rating than what these have. Again, for the sake of argument, let’s say you are right. And let’s say you are right that the trophy rating and difficulty rating are reflected in the score…

What sort of score would I expect to get with a boar at any of the FOUR remaining difficulty levels? I’m thinking over 1,000… that’s not possible. (I’ve got a Gold, 839 scoring, 110 trophy rated boar with a 4 – Easy difficulty. That’s a difference in score of 145, with only ONE level of difficulty between them. Are we saying trophy ratings peak before the difficulty rating?

Now let’s go back to the ‘Diamond’ bit. Call me crazy, but I believe the B/S/G/D have something to do with the score as well (unless it’s calculated using pixie dust and a Ouija board). And if the trophy level and difficulty level are reflected in the score, and the score is used in calculating Diamond – then ANYTHING I shoot with a difficulty of 6 – Hard or higher (in the above mentioned species) would be Diamond scoring animals. Or are we saying that the B/S/G/D are solely related to difficulty level – in which case we should see Diamond scoring 2 – Minor difficulty rated animals… I don’t think I’ve seen that.

Obviously I don’t think that would be the case. Somewhere along the line, something isn’t jiving (It might be me… I don’t know). Either the trophy rating has no bearing on score (which I would find hard to believe), difficulty has no bearing on score (which is what I was originally pointing out), or the B/S/G/D awards are random and have no bearing on score/difficulty/trophy rating.

Or maybe I’m completely wrong and there are scores higher than 1,000, a “Platinum” score that I’ve just not seen before… or there are no boars/elk/moose with a difficulty rating over 5 – Medium.

My highest scoring 8 – Mythical was a Gold, 896 scoring bear, with a 21 trophy rating. When you compare that score to these Diamond, 900+ scoring animals that are only 5 – Medium, something just doesn’t make sense when it comes to difficulty.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1258377272
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1112334468
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=973926495

The Mythical bear
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=921726207

[Rookie-31st]

Different species have different level caps. Whitetail deer has maximum level 3, while blacktail has maximum level 5. There is no level 9 for these species. Level 3 whitetail deer will have maximum possible trophy rating for whitetail deers. It essentially means that whitetail buck is relatively 'dumb' deer so it is probably the easiest prey in the game, although Level 3 is rare and most of the time you would see Level 2 up to 85kg. Still enough to get Gold

Trophy rating is not universal - it is different for each species. Same for difficulty level caps - not every species has level 9, most are capped at 5, some at 3. And higher trophy rated animals of certain species always have higher difficulty level, which affects their behaviour making them harder to hunt compared to lower trophy rating of the same species. So, it is harder to get Gold and especially Diamond because those are high trophy rating animals with high difficulty level. Thus, here is the indirect effect of difficulty on harvest score.

I think you should study this page: http://steamcommunity.com/app/518790/discussions/9/1290690926861337428/

[KaiEr]

Originally posted by rookie31st:

Different species have different level caps. Whitetail deer has maximum level 3, while blacktail has maximum level 5. There is no level 9 for these species. Level 3 whitetail deer will have maximum possible trophy rating for whitetail deers. It essentially means that whitetail buck is relatively 'dumb' deer so it is probably the easiest prey in the game, although Level 3 is rare and most of the time you would see Level 2 up to 85kg. Still enough to get Gold

Trophy rating is not universal - it is different for each species. Same for difficulty level caps - not every species has level 9, most are capped at 5, some at 3. And higher trophy rated animals of certain species always have higher difficulty level, which affects their behaviour making them harder to hunt compared to lower trophy rating of the same species. So, it is harder to get Gold and especially Diamond because those are high trophy rating animals with high difficulty level. Thus, here is the indirect effect of difficulty on harvest score.

I think you should study this page: http://steamcommunity.com/app/518790/discussions/9/1290690926861337428/

Well that makes sense as to the oddness of what I was pointing out - but the differences between some of the species makes no sense whatsoever. How are there legendary red deer?

And since this is the case (thanks for pointing that out) - I still think that the other half of what I was saying should be considered.

The difficulty of the shot should have some weight added to it - if they are going to include those 3 ethical bonuses. I see how it could be different for different situations and difficulty ratings with animals, but there's not that many variables to consider in making a bonus for that.

I mean... if two people are taking a low scoring coyote, with one doing it from 50y in the middle of an open field in broad daylight, and the other is doing it from 400y+ in the middle of the night through woods... there should be something there. It makes no difference in actual trophy hunting, but neither does consecutive harvests, quick kills or integrety (depending on how you define integrety - which the game uses something different).

[KaiEr]

Oh, and FYI. The reason I wasn’t aware of this, and the reason I made a suggestion about scoring, after nearly 1,600 hours of playing, is because I’ve never paid any attention to scoring. I’ve always just hunted - picking what I liked and stalking. It wasn’t until all of these bugs started rolling in that caused me to do more ambush hunting, and with the population of animals as it is, that ambush style turned into a slaughter.

So now it’s either play the game like a gallery shooter, or be extremely selective in what I shoot. I’m trying to be more selective with this, but the difficulty stuff started making me question everything. I men... walking out of tent to see a Medium boar, taking it and seeing Diamond... that just messed me up.

In all those hours, that’s why I’ve only taken 3 non-mission diamonds in all that time. As I said, never paid that much attention to score. Like yesterday – had a herd of buffalo with several nice bulls walk past me while I tried everything in my power to get an albino fallow doe to come to me. I eventually had to wade through the buffalo and several pigs and roe, while stalking and finally taking the albino (who cared what the scores were ). And when in the world has anyone ever needed to TRY to get a fallow doe to come to them. That was the most irritating thing in the world – to see a herd of fallow doe walking away from me when I called. That would be like seeing a roe doe pay no attention if you used scent and calls. Haha.

The only time I really paid any attention was to the weight of bears when I stalked them, which is why I do remember mythical scoring bears – of which I’ve taken several. But even then I never worried about the other ethical bonuses, which is why I have countless mythical bears with low scores (I only notice that going back through my screenshots). With everything else I just looked for males. I couldn’t even begin to tell you what “good” trophy ratings are between animals – With bear I believe it’s upwards of 20… but the rest? Who knows.

[Rookie-31st]

I see your point about shot difficulty, however I see it contradicting entire 'ethical' thing of the game. By taking harder shot, your risk of wounding or crippleing animal instead of killing it on the spot is much greater. And while ethical hunting means you don't pull the trigger unless you're confident and risk is minimal, you suggest additional reward for exact opposite - pulling trigger when you're less confident and risk is higher.

[KaiEr]

Originally posted by rookie31st:

I see your point about shot difficulty, however I see it contradicting entire 'ethical' thing of the game. By taking harder shot, your risk of wounding or crippleing animal instead of killing it on the spot is much greater. And while ethical hunting means you don't pull the trigger unless you're confident and risk is minimal, you suggest additional reward for exact opposite - pulling trigger when you're less confident and risk is higher.

But that's a judgement call isn't it? It can have to do with ability and confidence. They already have the ethical bonus for making a clean kill, and a deduction from it if you make a poor shot - so that's already built into the score. Whether it's a close or long range shot it's the same.

If we went by the idea that taking a long shot isn't as ethical as a close shot, then wouldn't a poor shot at close range be even less ethical than the same poor shot at a distance?

[Rookie-31st]

What I would suggest is larger weapon score in case of successful hit over longer distance and at night or during rain. I think harvest score is fair and balanced right now

[Fischkopf]

i see no need for Shooting exercises. A lucky shot from 300yards is not worth anything compared to lure a Diamond Trophy close in front to your nose until it stomps to your feet and then placing a perfect shot. Who judges what makes a shot difficult? 50m on a dancing Buck where you got a second to shoot or laying somewhere miles away in the grass and taking all the time you got to take the distance shot into a neck of a sleeping one?
In my opinion all is fetched up with the Integrity/Quick Kill Bonus.
BUT!
It is really sad that special fur types have no effect on the rating system.

ALSO i would like to see a downrating of headshots and (thorax or lower) spine shots as they are extremly unethical..

[Rookie-31st]

I agree about spine shots, although I use them quite often I always find it weird that thoracic, lumbar and even coccyx hits result in 100% quick kill. Anatomically, this is flat wrong.

[KaiEr]

Originally posted by Jägermaster:

i see no need for Shooting exercises. A lucky shot from 300yards is not worth anything compared to lure a Diamond Trophy close in front to your nose until it stomps to your feet and then placing a perfect shot. Who judges what makes a shot difficult? 50m on a dancing Buck where you got a second to shoot or laying somewhere miles away in the grass and taking all the time you got to take the distance shot into a neck of a sleeping one?
In my opinion all is fetched up with the Integrity/Quick Kill Bonus.
BUT!
It is really sad that special fur types have no effect on the rating system.

ALSO i would like to see a downrating of headshots and (thorax or lower) spine shots as they are extremly unethical..

Oh, I'm with you on that - I had written up a whole diatribe about exactly what you said, but I cut it out to be short. My point wasn't specifically on long shots, but the difficulty, not just shot difficulty (I just didn't clarify it). But using your point (which sort of makes my point for me) - don't you think there's a difference between calling in that diamond/mythical and someone who just spots one at 300y and takes it out while it's in a rest zone? That's sorta' my point. The difficulty of taking the animal (yes, a lot of variables but quite doable).

[Fischkopf]

Mhh, i wont disagree neither agree. What if you have tracked the Trophy for several miles until his needzone before? Do you really want to have a downgrade of your trophy then?

Personally I am fine with the score system since i fully understood it. Nevertheles i agree there is a lack of scoring piebald and albinos - especially on bucks as there sometimes really beatifull animals out there.

[KaiEr]

Originally posted by Jägermaster:

Mhh, i wont disagree neither agree. What if you have tracked the Trophy for several miles until his needzone before? Do you really want to have a downgrade of your trophy then?

Personally I am fine with the score system since i fully understood it. Nevertheles i agree there is a lack of scoring piebald and albinos - especially on bucks as there sometimes really beatifull animals out there.

But I think that would actually be part of the difficulty in taking the animal, not a detraction.

As I said earlier, I’ve never been worried about the score because I’ve always played it as a hunter not a gamer. But with the amount of bugs causing issues with trying to play it as a hunter, I’ve had to use something to keep myself from just playing it as a shooting gallery. And that means playing it somewhat like a gamer now, waiting for the bug fixes (or leaving altogether). And when I see all of these scores that have absolutely nothing to do with hunting (or what hunters care about when it comes to their idea of a trophy – like you pointing out the fur variations… those would be trophies in the eyes of hunters) – I figured asking for something that most hunters would consider part of the “score” in their mind, might be closer to realistic (of all the unrealistic considerations used so far in scoring).

I’m not asking them to take away anything, but to add something. Maybe I shouldn’t… that would just cause more bugs. haha