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Ok, I just want to correct myself.
I did a quick research, and it seems it is opposite to what I wrote. Actualy, soft-points' jackets are designed to hold-on, hence, only a tip of them expands. This gives somewhat bigger diameter of permament wound channel, but still much of energy (maybe even most of it) is retained for penetration. So soft-points should be propably considered as compromise between JHP and FMJ ammunition.
Most of hollow-point projectiles' jackets are supposed to be thorn apart during core's expansion. Hence, expansion is way more "full", so to speak. But of course, more of energy is used for expansion itself, hence there is somewhat less left for penetration.
This is highly generic, beceause what I wrote earlier about design of a given model of ammo holds true.
Due to speciffics of their design, some hollow-points may penetrate way better than some soft-points, and some soft-points may expand way better, than some hollow-points.
First off I agree with almost everything you said. Penetration is abysmal in this game and totally unrealistic. But I must remind you that hunting regulations are not the same all over the world.
Example, I hunt moose with my .308, but I also hunt capercaillie with it, for that we use FMJ. A birds vitals are packed tight and it will kill it with less loss of meat. We also use it to kill incapacitated moose thats suffering,So it is not strictly a military round.
Okay back to penetration, even when shooting with expanding Norma 180 grains you can often have shrapnel flying out of the moose on the other side. Last year we even had a guy get a double kill on moose, penetrating the moose and hitting the one behind (shooter did'nt see it before taking the shot) Other scenarios are also something very important, when you have dogs around the moose, especially behind it, hunters should not shoot because shrapnel and overpenetration is common.
Meanwhile in this game, a 338 with polymer tip just barely reaches the other lung on a moose, like what the ♥♥♥♥. Then you bring out your DLC crossbow, shoot a rushing water buffalo from 30 meters, you will penetrate him from head to ass, breaking all the vitals in the body?
For the other guy, a hydrostatic shock works the same way as it does in water, the impact of the bullet will transfer the energy the same way in the body. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_if3-IMPIv4. If you have a hydrostatic shock large enough and voilent enough IT will cause K.O on the nervous system or take out enough vitals to make it die on the spot. Chock effect on living beeings is well known.
Most moose we shoot, walk less than 20 meters before dropping dead, we shoot with 300 win mag, 308, 30-06, 338, 370, 6,5 9,3 etc etc. Most shots are taken from 80 - 150 meters.
If so, I want to say (or rather to write) that I'm aware of (lot) cases of instant incapacitation (aside of course of direct central nervous system damage, I mean). The problem with those cases is, that we still don't understand them fully, so it's make them difficult to properly simulate in any game environment.
So called 'hydrostatic shock' (term itself seems to be false, because we deal here with hydrodynamics, not with hydrostatics), from my perspective, is propably best supported scientifficaly theory on instant incapacitation. Still, there are many problems with this concept either (and btw., video is not realy good choosen, because animal's or human's body is not solid, rigid container - it is ellastic and, generalising, it is capable to ellasticaly absorb quite large extend of energy/pressure caused by projectile passage).
When it comes to actual measurements, researchers do not agree. Some research shows, that projectile passage cause sufficient hydrodynamic forces to indeed remotely 'disable' central nervous system. But some other research seems to show something quite opposite.
There are also some other explanations for 'hydrostatic shock', with concentrate not so much on forces generated by bullet passage alone, but more about a sound wave associated with it (and I'd like to mind you, that the speed of sound is way higher in water, than in the air, and some research seems so to show, that in tissues is even higher - hence, most projectiles do not pass through tissues with speed higher than speed of sound - in this environment, they are subsonic).
Taking all this info into account, phenomenom can be (probably) highly dependent on projectiles velocity (so cartridge 'charge' and distance to target would matter), a medium it is passing through (meaning type of tissues - ellastic, vs. less-ellastic, bones for example, and their sound transmission properties), and distance of projectile's path (withing a body) from central nervous system.
However, some research done shows, that 'instant incapacitation' (regardless of the cause - will it be 'hydrostatic shock' or something else) occurs more-or-less in 50% of cases (rifle cartridges) almost regardless of cartridge used (altough, those all shots were probably taken at relatively close range, hence there could be not sufficient differences in speeds between cartridges to make this matter).
Aside of 'hydrostatic shock', there is another phenomenom I'm aware of, and this is 'instant heart stop'. However, I'm not aware of any definite explanation of this phenomenom.
So... since the phenomenom of 'instant drops' is still rather poorly understood, I do not insist on simulating it in the game's environment. However, I guess it could be soemwhat roughly simulated as a kind of a 'crit-hit chance'. And also in real life, it is hard to rely on this phenomenom if indeed (statisticaly) we have fifty-fifty chance to experience it. Hence my focus on 'normal' way of incapacitation based on brain's oxygen-starvation due to drop of blood pressure.
This all was of course off-topic, but I wanted to clarify this. Main subject here is of course penetration, and I believe that despite all differences in opinions between us, we can all agree, that what the game is representing is nothing as real and it is simply pathetic.
Scientists/researchers call it hydrostatic shock and hunters call it that. It’s a fine enough definition. In my language we just call it “shock effect”.
You talk about it like it’s a huge disagreement between scientists and researchers but I can’t find any evidence for that.
The Vietnam guys research were all from FMJ hits which concidently fits perfectly with less hydrostatic shock and damage beyond wound channel. His argument fit with a kidney stone removal tool that later was disproven.
This research pretty much sums it up
https://arxiv.org/pdf/0803.3051.pdf
Makes pretty good sense to me anyway. Let me punch you in your spine or internal organs, pretty sure you will be incapacitated. :)
Now even if the hydrostatic shock does not make the animal instantly drop, soft tissue damage from the shock itself will of course cause a lot of tissue damage and vital damage because the rapid expansion of tissue will cause a lot of bleeding.
Now back to the point. Penetration is horrible, unrealistic and is one of my major dislikes with the game,I agree.
They should give animals a set HP pool. Every different round should do a set damage. Appropriate weapon should do like 50% of animals HP. Then 20% for each lung. 50% for heart or brain. The other vitals 10%
A double lung or heart hit with the correct weapon should always give 100% quick kill.
That does not mean the animal needs to instantly drop. 20-100 meters for a double lung running and still get the quick kill feels reasonable and realistic for me. All animals instantly dropping like they do with spine shots feels stupid imho.
Spine shots should leave the animal incapacitated but not dead on the ground. You have to wait for it to die or shoot it again. Sacrificing integrity or quick kill.
Then they give weapons realistic penetration. And instead of carrying 3-4 different weapon with penetration or expansion. Round types should be able to be chosen for animal type. So overkill with a heavy load should result in loss of integrity. Like I wouldn’t shoot red deer or reindeer with the same bullet that I shoot moose or bear. It would also mean I can use the 270 to kill all deer with different bullet types instead of lugging around several different weapon. Pretty much like how the bow works atm.
With advanced round types we could get.
Expansion vs penetration can work like this. Smaller rounds need to use rounds with more penetration to penetrate trough the animal. But larger calibers can use a round with more expansion the bullet cone in the animal is now bigger and has a higher chance of hitting vitals, with less pinpoint hits.
This will make 338 usable on class 3-4, 7mm usable on 2-4, .270 on 1-3, .243 on 0-2, .223 on 0-2.
Weapon classifications have to change for some animals. Weapon damage will also be based on round type used. Example.
.270 with class 2 ammo will have same penetration as .243 with class 2 ammo. It will do the same damage on hit, but expansion will give it a larger bullet cone. Shooting .270 with class 3
Ammo will result in overkill because hit will do maybe 95% damage and if you hit 1 vital it will result in overkill and loss of integrity. Or you could make it so a class 3 round does overpenetration dealing less dmg to the animal on hit and less damage to vitals.
That does not mean the animal needs to instantly drop."
Arguing for this since release, developers keep ignoring it. They probably cannot hear me, or anyone else making a case for it, because whoever does, gets screamed down by idiotic fanbois that neither understand ballistics, nor biology or what makes good gameplay.
Tl;dr: This is a completely lost cause. They will never ever change the ballistics to anything even remotely authentic and useful, it will forever stay this crappy because that is what they want.
And that is why many people do not play this (anymore).
It’s so sad to see because the game has such potential. It looks great, sounds are good, atv handles like a muppet but I can live with that. Hunting with friends are fun. Competing for trophy score is fun. But taking spine shots to get trophy score is retarded.
It's almost as if they had a pitch meeting where the goal was to find ways to keep the game mediocre instead of fleshing out all its potential.
It makes no sense.
None.
And if I recall correctly guns are going to get some tweaks as well (it has something to do with the .270 being unable to get full integrity on white tails ((or is it black tails?). Basically, right now, weapon caliber vs animal class aren't fully aligned because they started commiting changes to the these mechanics and aren't finished yet.).
I really hope weapons and ammunition get a second look at, specially the buckshot for shotguns, because right now it is broken as hell.
I mean, it’s okay for development teams to go a different route or not agree with all their player base. But I would like them to motivate the choices they make.
Like, we feel the game would be to easy, not as rewarding for well placed shots, maybe they felt it would render a weapon class useless?
But their way of going about it is like making enemies bullet sponges in FPS games to make it not as “easy”. Hard does not always make a game fun or feel rewarding if its does not fit the game. The way penetration works in this game is as logical as jet packs in counterstrike. Dinosaurs in battlefield 5, permadeath in overwatch etc.
It’s not all about realism but what makes sense in the game.
Battlefield games are not realistic. But that’s not the point. It gives the feeling of a well balanced war game. Battlefield 1 is not pure trench warfare with 60 000 dead and death rushes into machine gun fire. That would be unfun. Sacrifices had to be made for the sake of balance and for fun factor. For a non historian it’s still gives you the illusion of WW1 and the gamer feels like he’s in a war.
Hunter COTW. Is unrealistic in many ways. But the sacrifices in weapon performance has nothing to do with fun factor. Neither is it a good way to balance weapons. It makes no sense from a gameplay standpoint. Especially since I’ve read that they don’t like the whole spine shot thing going on.
Are they going to make it so spineahots is not viable? Lung shots will still be as bad? And heart shots be the only viable way to get diamond? I’m fine with that. As long as weapon penetration gets increased and double lung gives at least 80% quick kill. But then more guns needs to be able to penetrate from to the heart from more angles. Because from 150 meters heart shots sometimes fail to penetrate with 338
That would be awesome. Don’t forget crossbow and bow with 600 arrows. 300 arrows are okay for rabbits but useless on musk deer and 420 give 0% integrity.
As far as them not liking the spine shot thing...well they created the problem in the first place with their less than spectacular penetration issues. The player base simply found a way to overcome the problem. Think it would help to send them a reloading manual so they could at least get some of the ammo close?
In first sorry for my english.
body is incompressible fluid medium. Thus shock wave has direction to closest boarder of body. If shot direction complanared to longitudinal axis of symmetry of the body than shockwave direction is across direction of shot. Then shot directed acros longitudinal axis of symmetry of the body then shockwave direction is complanared to direction of shot. PS: it seems to me.
I think I know what you're saying. If the shot is on the X axis, shockwave should travel out on the Y and Z axis? But shockwave closest to border I understand what you mean but I don't see what you're thinking? it's a circular effect but I guess pressure would try to dissapate into the area of least resistance?