Dear Expansive Worlds - what's wrong with your update sizes?

[krzychuzokecia]

Sorry for clickbait title, but seriously - last friday I downloaded CoTW after 3-year hiatus. 36 gigs worth of downloading. Today Steam notifies me about 22GB update, which (after putting it in download que) somehow turns in 34GB of download. So, essentially I have to re-download the whole game for apparently 3 new rifles (DLC I don't own), a few new skins (DLC I don't own), and maybe, maybe new free lodge (but I'm not sure if it's part of this update).

Why? Your games - CoTW and GenZero - are the only games I've seen which have such large downloads. At least CoTW allows me to download the update - with GenZero I couldn't download last 14GB update due to "not enough disk space" even when I had 40+ GB of free space on a perfectly working drive.

I don't know if it's because of compression algorithm you use, or file structure of your games, or both, but it's just awful from customer point of view.

[magicISO Sweden]

if you think its only for that then you dont understand how a update works

[krzychuzokecia]

Well, enlighten me good sir, then! You're saying that some small fixes in configs and binaries (which all are text files for all intents and purposes) are worth re-downloading almost all the game data?

And yes, Steam is now currently re-downloading almost the whole game, as I suddenly got 70 gigs of free space on my drive, and CoTW folder now has only 1.66GB worth of data. This is awfully inefficent.

[Ajax]

Originally posted by krzychuzokecia:

Sorry for clickbait title, but seriously - last friday I downloaded CoTW after 3-year hiatus. 36 gigs worth of downloading. Today Steam notifies me about 22GB update, which (after putting it in download que) somehow turns in 34GB of download. So, essentially I have to re-download the whole game for apparently 3 new rifles (DLC I don't own), a few new skins (DLC I don't own), and maybe, maybe new free lodge (but I'm not sure if it's part of this update).

Why? Your games - CoTW and GenZero - are the only games I've seen which have such large downloads. At least CoTW allows me to download the update - with GenZero I couldn't download last 14GB update due to "not enough disk space" even when I had 40+ GB of free space on a perfectly working drive.

I don't know if it's because of compression algorithm you use, or file structure of your games, or both, but it's just awful from customer point of view.

Amen brother

[Whizzdom]

this is a trend alot of publishers do now and ive encountered the same problems .games are becoming like bags of crisps they are all half empty allocating anticipated space thats not used and making us install dlc content for everyone until purchase unlocks it .its not beneficial for customers who dont intend to purchase the dlc . i have a 2 tb hdd and can barely fit 30 games on it which is ridiculous . very often now i have to choose which game to sacrifice in order to accommodate dlc for a game which i play but have no intention of purchasing the dlc . i have already blacklisted some of my games for this behaviour .. its extra not fun when your not blessed by high speed connection.

[Licenturion]

'are the only games I've seen which have such large downloads.'

You don't play much games it seems. Games like Call Of Duty have 20 GB updates sometimes twice a month. Overwatch, Fornite, Apex, Witcher 3 NG, Sea Of Thieves, ...

All those games have massive updates on PC and even consoles. A lot of developers are under the assumption that in modern times broadband isn't much of an issue for most people and don't put much effort anymore in compression or delta updates but just let you re-download half the game.

[Haddock_Dundee]

Originally posted by Licenturion:

A lot of developers are under the assumption that in modern times broadband isn't much of an issue for most people and don't put much effort anymore in compression or delta updates but just let you re-download half the game.

Especially in European Nordic countries, where devs are, and where broadband internet on fiber optics is common. In Finland, on a business trip TWENTY years ago, I even had Internet connection on my room phone as phone was over IP... I could connect my ethernet cable to it and surf with laptop. All included in room price.

[magicISO Sweden]

Originally posted by Haddock:

Originally posted by Licenturion:

A lot of developers are under the assumption that in modern times broadband isn't much of an issue for most people and don't put much effort anymore in compression or delta updates but just let you re-download half the game.

Especially in European Nordic countries where broadband internet on fiber optics is common. In Finland, on a business trip TWENTY years ago, I even had Internet connection on my room phone as phone was over IP... I could connect my ethernet cable to it and surf with laptop. All included in room price.

yeah i am from sweden and i have 1000/1000mbit so 22gb take min

[Snail Rancher]

Originally posted by krzychuzokecia:

Well, enlighten me good sir, then! You're saying that some small fixes in configs and binaries (which all are text files for all intents and purposes) are worth re-downloading almost all the game data?

And yes, Steam is now currently re-downloading almost the whole game, as I suddenly got 70 gigs of free space on my drive, and CoTW folder now has only 1.66GB worth of data. This is awfully inefficent.

There is a trophy lodge, the new loadout system, and more than a few bug fixes. Since the bug fixes are over all the DLC reserves as well, which need to be downloaded so they can be used in multiplayer (for free). All of that adds up. Most games with a large DLC library have the same issue.

[krzychuzokecia]

Originally posted by Licenturion:

You don't play much games it seems. Games like Call Of Duty have 20 GB updates sometimes twice a month. Overwatch, Fornite, Apex, Witcher 3 NG, Sea Of Thieves, ...

Eh, I beg to differ - I play too much of too many games these days lol. But none of the titles you mention - and I seem to notice that they all are cross-platform games, so maybe that's where the problem lies somehow? From all the games I played in last month, WWZ: Aftermath had the biggest update size (around 10 gigs) and it's also available for consoles.

But on the other hand, this was pretty hefty update in terms of changes to the game, not just data (new map, new weapons, complete rework of weapon levelling and upgrades), and yet required only downloading a 1/6th of total game size.

Originally posted by Licenturion:

A lot of developers are under the assumption that in modern times broadband isn't much of an issue for most people

This isn't just broadband issue though - as I noted in OP, I can't even download updates for Generation Zero (which is another EW title running on Apex engine). Last two updates (both around 14 gigs IIRC) refused to download due to lack of disk space, even though I had more than enough.

Made me think my drive is dying, but fortunately that wasn't a case - and I simply uninstalled the game, and downloaded it as a whole instead of downloading just the update. This is definitely weird and shouldn't happen.

[Malikyte]

Originally posted by Licenturion:

'are the only games I've seen which have such large downloads.'

You don't play much games it seems. Games like Call Of Duty have 20 GB updates sometimes twice a month. Overwatch, Fornite, Apex, Witcher 3 NG, Sea Of Thieves, ...

All those games have massive updates on PC and even consoles. A lot of developers are under the assumption that in modern times broadband isn't much of an issue for most people and don't put much effort anymore in compression or delta updates but just let you re-download half the game.

Just because anti-consumer AAA giants do it doesn't mean it should be acceptable behavior.

[krzychuzokecia]

Originally posted by Snail Rancher:

There is a trophy lodge, the new loadout system, and more than a few bug fixes. Since the bug fixes are over all the DLC reserves as well, which need to be downloaded so they can be used in multiplayer (for free). All of that adds up. Most games with a large DLC library have the same issue.

Trophy lodge is the only addition that could need several gigs worth of data (and even then how much it could be with today's texture compression algorithms?). Most of the changes (loadouts, bug fixes, even new anims for the lever-action) are located in text files. Even without compression we're looking at maybe hundreds of megabytes of data.

I suppose the real issue is that those small-sized data are packaged with all the "big" stuff (textures, soundfiles) in compressed "archives"/packs. UE uses .pak files for that, seems like Apex uses .arc files. This is clearly developer oversight/mistake - because now indeed you have to redownload whole game to do a number of small changes, instead of keeping that stuff separate.

And it doesn't have anything to do with forcing players to download DLCs they don't own. Payday 2 does the same (everyone has all the DLC data even if they don't own them and can't access them), but they keep configs, sounds, textures etc. in separate compressed archives, so their big updates are just 1-2 gigs downloads for an 80GB sized game. While changing stuff across many years of development/DLCs. And we're talking about an ancient engine which doesn't use modern compression methods.

[Snail Rancher]

Originally posted by krzychuzokecia:

Originally posted by Snail Rancher:

There is a trophy lodge, the new loadout system, and more than a few bug fixes. Since the bug fixes are over all the DLC reserves as well, which need to be downloaded so they can be used in multiplayer (for free). All of that adds up. Most games with a large DLC library have the same issue.

Trophy lodge is the only addition that could need several gigs worth of data (and even then how much it could be with today's texture compression algorithms?). Most of the changes (loadouts, bug fixes, even new anims for the lever-action) are located in text files. Even without compression we're looking at maybe hundreds of megabytes of data.

I suppose the real issue is that those small-sized data are packaged with all the "big" stuff (textures, soundfiles) in compressed "archives"/packs. UE uses .pak files for that, seems like Apex uses .arc files. This is clearly developer oversight/mistake - because now indeed you have to redownload whole game to do a number of small changes, instead of keeping that stuff separate.

And it doesn't have anything to do with forcing players to download DLCs they don't own. Payday 2 does the same (everyone has all the DLC data even if they don't own them and can't access them), but they keep configs, sounds, textures etc. in separate compressed archives, so their big updates are just 1-2 gigs downloads for an 80GB sized game. While changing stuff across many years of development/DLCs. And we're talking about an ancient engine which doesn't use modern compression methods.

Sounds like you need to ask Avalanche Studios Group for a job. They accept open applications:

https://avalanchestudios.com/

[Snail Rancher]

Originally posted by Snail Rancher:

Originally posted by krzychuzokecia:

Trophy lodge is the only addition that could need several gigs worth of data (and even then how much it could be with today's texture compression algorithms?). Most of the changes (loadouts, bug fixes, even new anims for the lever-action) are located in text files. Even without compression we're looking at maybe hundreds of megabytes of data.

I suppose the real issue is that those small-sized data are packaged with all the "big" stuff (textures, soundfiles) in compressed "archives"/packs. UE uses .pak files for that, seems like Apex uses .arc files. This is clearly developer oversight/mistake - because now indeed you have to redownload whole game to do a number of small changes, instead of keeping that stuff separate.

And it doesn't have anything to do with forcing players to download DLCs they don't own. Payday 2 does the same (everyone has all the DLC data even if they don't own them and can't access them), but they keep configs, sounds, textures etc. in separate compressed archives, so their big updates are just 1-2 gigs downloads for an 80GB sized game. While changing stuff across many years of development/DLCs. And we're talking about an ancient engine which doesn't use modern compression methods.

Sounds like you need to ask Avalanche Studios Group for a job and bring your experience to sorting out their problems. They accept open applications:

https://avalanchestudios.com/

[krzychuzokecia]

Oh, what an insightful message, mom will be so proud of you! :)

[Licenturion]

Originally posted by krzychuzokecia:

This isn't just broadband issue though - as I noted in OP, I can't even download updates for Generation Zero (which is another EW title running on Apex engine). Last two updates (both around 14 gigs IIRC) refused to download due to lack of disk space, even though I had more than enough.

Made me think my drive is dying, but fortunately that wasn't a case - and I simply uninstalled the game, and downloaded it as a whole instead of downloading just the update. This is definitely weird and shouldn't happen.

This is normal. They mention only the update size but u usually need double space

- download update in (semi) compressed format
- extract the update in another temporary folder
- copy over the update to the game folder
- clean up files

This applies also to console where I can download updates but can't install them because there isn't enough room for the other operations.