Penetration of .338

[Jin]

Hello, I want to make a discussion about the viability of the .338, I have tested the .338 vs the biggest game (Moose and Bison) and I have come to the conclusion that the .338 is underpowered compared to what it's supposed to be.

Here is a screenshot of a frontal hit on a moose perfectly aligned on the heart.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1235867590

As you can see it gets through the skin just fine and penetrates deeply inside the Moose. However, if you compare this to a Rhino screenshot you can see just how much more powerful the Rhino is and how weak the .338 is. The Rhino does not care about bones, it penetrates every bone with ease. .338 struggles a lot with big game bones from Moose and Bison.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1235867495

I made the same shot, same angle on a Moose and the .338 can NOT reach the heart like the Rhino can. Imo, the .338 is a completely waste of money and you should only ever take it if you need long range shots, but to me that is very unrealistic.

In game, the Rhino has 100 penetration, whereas the .338 only has 55. 55 Penetration is not enough for such a calibre and unrealistic. It should be 70-75. All the rifles are slightly underpowered and all Pistols have a way higher punch. I know rifles are supposed to be long range weapons, but they are just so unrealistically underpowered it breaks the immersion.

The only Animal I like to kill with .338 is the Brown Bear, because it can get through the leg bones just fine and you get 100% integrity. But still, you can just use Rhino on every big game and get easy 1 shot kills. Even if you miss the heart with the Rhino, you get double penetrating lung shots which is almost as good as a heart shot.

A side shot into a moose does NOT pierce both lungs with the .338. It doesn't even have enough punch to get a double lung shot from the side!!!

[Braker]

yeah I have thought the same many times..I have hit Moose in the skull with 338 and they run away. I actually shot an elk the other day with the Rhino as it was running away and it insta dropped, the bullet went through his rear, intestines, and all the way to it's heart. I was amazed but definitely agree the penetration on the .338 just does not seem to pack the oomph it really should.

[NuCkEnFuTs]

i was thinking it was overpowered after this shot.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1227013052

[Jin]

Originally posted by NuCkEnFuTs:

i was thinking it was overpowered after this shot.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1227013052

That's just a red deer, try Moose and Bison with it. It struggles to pen weapon class 4 animals. Weapon class 3 animals are all easy with .338 :)

I also suggest not using it on Red Deer because you get 0 Integrity. Brown Bear is fine with .338, and I think Roosevelt Elk, but I didn't hunt a lot there yet.

Basically, it's overkill on Class 3, and "sucks" vs Class 4. Which is not good design. The Rhino is simply the best big game gun in the game. The only downside is range. Anything around 50m is 1 shot no matter how bad you aim with Rhino. It pens everything through bones etc.

[NuCkEnFuTs]

yea, i know and was hunting bison with it. only had a bow and 223 for fox. i know i've shot some bison with it in the neck and they ran, same with moose. but then i've drop some with the 223 or 243. luck of the draw maybe? who knows :)
here's one i thought would should have had much more damage with the 338
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1214366943

[saphire jinn]

yeah we found that out, in Russia, on Moose, the .338 has zero penetration, works great on Alaskan Moose though, so in Russia, use the 7mm, you get a bit more penetration. But still not much. They do need to fix that, make them both the same, and by saying that i mean make the Russian Moose like the American ones, not the other way around.

[Jin]

Originally posted by NuCkEnFuTs:

yea, i know and was hunting bison with it. only had a bow and 223 for fox. i know i've shot some bison with it in the neck and they ran, same with moose. but then i've drop some with the 223 or 243. luck of the draw maybe? who knows :)
here's one i thought would should have had much more damage with the 338
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1214366943

This is exactly what I mean, you only get to pen 1 lung, which is not enough to down the moose to get quick kill bonus. You need double lung shot or heart shot. So Rhino is way better than .338

[ETERNAL-JACKASS]

It's not really the gun to fault, it's bullet design. Taking real world bullet design into account you see the issue. Ballist tip or polymer tip bullets are designed to expand or seperate/explode on impact we're as hard cast bullets are designed to stay intact with little deformation/expansion in order to get the best penetration.

They need to add different ammo types for the rifles with premium bonded type hunting loads.

[Razamanaz]

I always thought polymer tips were basically hollow points with better aerodynamics. Allowing better flight characteristics than a hollow point but with the expansion/fragmentation that allows it to expend all it's energy in the target. (larger wound area, less penetration.)
Soft points are more like ball ammo with high penetration often penetrating the entire target but leaving a much smaller wound cavity. Hard cast pistol ammo should be along the lines of soft point for the rifles. This has seemed screwed up too me since day 1.

[ETERNAL-JACKASS]

Originally posted by Razamanaz:

I always thought polymer tips were basically hollow points with better aerodynamics. Allowing better flight characteristics than a hollow point but with the expansion/fragmentation that allows it to expend all it's energy in the target. (larger wound area, less penetration.)
Soft points are more like ball ammo with high penetration often penetrating the entire target but leaving a much smaller wound cavity. Hard cast pistol ammo should be along the lines of soft point for the rifles. This has seemed screwed up too me since day 1.

Yes the polymer tips come in 2 types IRL, the main type are hollow points with the ballistic tip which is meant to push back on the hollow cavity making it expand more and become explosive. Then there are bonded bullets with polymer tips which are there really only for aerodynamics.

[KaiEr]

Well I'll say this - and of course I know the reaction comments will probably start flowing, but here it is. Polymer tips are not penetrators (IRL) - that's not even what they were created for. Your run-of-the-mill ballistic tips were created for rapid expansion and high BC. However, with the way the game is set up, people are under the impression that the poly tips are the best, and that the JSP rounds are expansion rounds. I've never understood this in-game mentality, nor the mechanics of the game that make it so.

I don't know a lot of people who would take a run-of-the-mill poly tip out hunting moose, regardless of it being a .338 or 7mm Mag.

Poly tips have their place, and they are great rounds when used in the correct situation, with the correct prey in mind - but moose hunting? The JSP would (and should) be the round of choice for hunting moose. But in-game... that's another story.

[NXS Tripp]

I would hope they have used at least a basic ballistic calculator but judging from bullet trajectory at the shooting range and observed terminal penetration I have my doubts.

[Jin]

The problem with expansion vs penetration is that expansion is not worth it in-game. The game only simulates organs hit, not veins destroyed or colleteral damage so to speak. That's why the highest Penetration ammo is always the best regardless what you shoot. You want to get as deep as possible and hit as many organs, if possible, heart being the #1 target.

We maybe need an ammo and damage model rework if the devs have the time to look at them. :)

All the damage seems to come from the bullet itself, so it traveling in the body as far as possible is doing the most damage. That's at the very least my impression from 200ish hours.

[ChaosMind42]

Originally posted by Jin:

The problem with expansion vs penetration is that expansion is not worth it in-game. The game only simulates organs hit, not veins destroyed or colleteral damage so to speak. That's why the highest Penetration ammo is always the best regardless what you shoot. You want to get as deep as possible and hit as many organs, if possible, heart being the #1 target.

We maybe need an ammo and damage model rework if the devs have the time to look at them. :)

All the damage seems to come from the bullet itself, so it traveling in the body as far as possible is doing the most damage. That's at the very least my impression from 200ish hours.

This seems to be the best answer i found so far regarding this topic and it is from 2017... I think i can assume that nothing has changed since then, right?

[Carstein83]

Afaik the power of the soft bullets was buffed with an update somewhere in 2020 or 2021. So I am not sure, if this is valid any longer. In addition you have to considerate, that you only have to manage a vital hit to get the full medal since the system change in 2020. Back in days you had to get a full quick kill bonus to get the full score, that´s not the case any longer. The difference between soft and hard bullets is much smaller nowadays.

[Hidden Gunman]

Overthinking things, sorry. expanding rounds are low tier, hard points are top tier...its not about realism, its about gamey unlocks.