45-70 Stopping Power debacle

[florble mcfumperdink]

Why is the 45-70 so severely under-powered in this game? In real life the 45-70 is basically on par with a .300 Weatherby Magnum, it's used to hunt Moose, Elk, Brown Bear, Bison and even Cape Buffalo for Christ's sake! Yet, here in TheHunter CotW, you can mess up a shot on a whitetail deer with a gun that, in real life, was a preferred caliber for hunting African Cape Buffalo and Elephants.

Of all the things in this game it's not the bugs that peeve me, it's that the 45-70 and the 30-30 are water guns in comparison to how they SHOULD perform.

[Hidden Gunman]

I think you are drawing a long bow there...45-70 vs elephant? Not what I'd consider a preferred calibre.

[florble mcfumperdink]

Publicado originalmente por Hidden Gunman:

I think you are drawing a long bow there...45-70 vs elephant? Not what I'd consider a preferred calibre.

Thanks for pointing that out, while certainly capable of killing an elephant, 45-70 lacks the sufficient muzzle energy to do so reliably beyond basically point blank range, looking/thinking back, Elephants are more to the effect of an animal that you would use a .375 H&H or a .470 Nitro Express. That being said, the point stands that the developers turned a beloved Buffalo/Moose gun into a featherweight deer rifle that has problems with a 140 pound Whitetail.

Edit: Cape Buffalo may also be a tad bit of a stretch for the 45-70 considering the 1-2.5 inch thick hide and the incredibly thick, protective, overlapping ribs that turn it into a living armored Volvo with horns.

[Char0093]

Based on Facts my man. .45-70 Government was used from all sorts of game from Deer, to Lions and Buffalo. The Standard load, 405-grain is pretty much good for any North American Big Game, From Elk, to Bears.. Even Bison. I know there are some Higher Grain Loads that were used back in the late 1800s in Africa for All sorts of Hunting.

Now, What I'd REALLY Love for the .45-70 we have in game, is since We Already have the .45 Long Colt and the .410 rounds for it, I'd LOVE to give it the .45-90 WCF... Also known sometimes as the .45-90 Sharps, And more commonly, the .45-90 Express the .45-90 WILL Drop the Largest Game in his game, without question.

[florble mcfumperdink]

Publicado originalmente por Char0093:

Based on Facts my man. .45-70 Government was used from all sorts of game from Deer, to Lions and Buffalo. The Standard load, 405-grain is pretty much good for any North American Big Game, From Elk, to Bears.. Even Bison. I know there are some Higher Grain Loads that were used back in the late 1800s in Africa for All sorts of Hunting.

Now, What I'd REALLY Love for the .45-70 we have in game, is since We Already have the .45 Long Colt and the .410 rounds for it, I'd LOVE to give it the .45-90 WCF... Also known sometimes as the .45-90 Sharps, And more commonly, the .45-90 Express the .45-90 WILL Drop the Largest Game in his game, without question.

OOOOOOOHHHH I almost forgot about the 45-90 Sharps/Express. To be honest the current ammo would be okay where it is if they just gave it 45-90 Sharps/Express in weapon class four as a third ammo choice.

[Hidden Gunman]

Publicado originalmente por Char0093:

Based on Facts my man. .45-70 Government was used from all sorts of game from Deer, to Lions and Buffalo. The Standard load, 405-grain is pretty much good for any North American Big Game, From Elk, to Bears.. Even Bison. I know there are some Higher Grain Loads that were used back in the late 1800s in Africa for All sorts of Hunting.

Now, What I'd REALLY Love for the .45-70 we have in game, is since We Already have the .45 Long Colt and the .410 rounds for it, I'd LOVE to give it the .45-90 WCF... Also known sometimes as the .45-90 Sharps, And more commonly, the .45-90 Express the .45-90 WILL Drop the Largest Game in his game, without question.

The late 1800's big game loads were limited by use of black powder, which is why express rifles were developed. While nitro-based propellants increased the power available for projectiles, the move to jacketed projectiles brought with it the issue of fragmentation when used on thick or hard hided animals, and with striking heavy bone mass. While most jacketed high velocity projectiles have a tendency to break up, high calibre projectiles have the advantage of being able to have a heavier gauge of jacketing to mitigate some of that potential.

The relatively recent moves toward alloy or composite projectiles, while expensive, has introduced some serious penetration and improved fragmentation results.

All that said though, in game terms the firearm/ammunition choices available are limited by the game design...they are the way they are because of the progressive unlock nature of the game, to provide challenges for the player, rather than to provide a broad range of choice per se.

I actually think that in real terms the 'goal unlock' aspect to the game is largely irrelevant to a lot of players, who actually get more satisfaction from the actual activity of hunting in the game, as a goal in itself, rather than any reward that comes from it. Sure, money and XP are good, because it unlocks things and allows us to buy more toys, but we only do that to enable us to do more hunting. It's almost as if the devs intended us to do one thing, but the players are actually enjoying the journey, not the goal, irrespective of developer intent.

@Florble, sorry if seemed like a ♥♥♥, I wasn't having a dig...it was just a bit of a rushed post as I browsed the forum, may have seemed a bit snarky or abrupt, which I didn't intend.

[florble mcfumperdink]

Publicado originalmente por Hidden Gunman:

Publicado originalmente por Char0093:

Based on Facts my man. .45-70 Government was used from all sorts of game from Deer, to Lions and Buffalo. The Standard load, 405-grain is pretty much good for any North American Big Game, From Elk, to Bears.. Even Bison. I know there are some Higher Grain Loads that were used back in the late 1800s in Africa for All sorts of Hunting.

Now, What I'd REALLY Love for the .45-70 we have in game, is since We Already have the .45 Long Colt and the .410 rounds for it, I'd LOVE to give it the .45-90 WCF... Also known sometimes as the .45-90 Sharps, And more commonly, the .45-90 Express the .45-90 WILL Drop the Largest Game in his game, without question.

The late 1800's big game loads were limited by use of black powder, which is why express rifles were developed. While nitro-based propellants increased the power available for projectiles, the move to jacketed projectiles brought with it the issue of fragmentation when used on thick or hard hided animals, and with striking heavy bone mass. While most jacketed high velocity projectiles have a tendency to break up, high calibre projectiles have the advantage of being able to have a heavier gauge of jacketing to mitigate some of that potential.

The relatively recent moves toward alloy or composite projectiles, while expensive, has introduced some serious penetration and improved fragmentation results.

All that said though, in game terms the firearm/ammunition choices available are limited by the game design...they are the way they are because of the progressive unlock nature of the game, to provide challenges for the player, rather than to provide a broad range of choice per se.

I actually think that in real terms the 'goal unlock' aspect to the game is largely irrelevant to a lot of players, who actually get more satisfaction from the actual activity of hunting in the game, as a goal in itself, rather than any reward that comes from it. Sure, money and XP are good, because it unlocks things and allows us to buy more toys, but we only do that to enable us to do more hunting. It's almost as if the devs intended us to do one thing, but the players are actually enjoying the journey, not the goal, irrespective of developer intent.

@Florble, sorry if seemed like a ♥♥♥, I wasn't having a dig...it was just a bit of a rushed post as I browsed the forum, may have seemed a bit snarky or abrupt, which I didn't intend.

I didn't interpret your post as a dig, just saw an expressed opinion from another person :D

I also agree with your opinion about the limit of firearm/munitions choices to encourage the progression through the weapon classes. I'm also going to second the relative irrelevance of the goal unlock system to a lot of players. I myself for one at least experienced this. I saw that .338 Magnum and went "Big f*ck-off boomstick right there I GOTTA have it", and then I got the .270 and the 7mm and the polymer tipped ammo for both respectively for the two previously mentioned along with the .243 and before I knew it I had overshot the rifle score needed for the .338 by 2,000 or 3,000 and had well above double the needed cash to purchase it because I had fallen in love with not only the lower caliber guns, but with the game and everything about it.

[cybvep]

My idea is to solve this with an additional ammo type for Class 4 animals. ATM .45-70 is good for Class 2 and 3 animals, but it fails against moose, bison, buffalo etc.

[florble mcfumperdink]

Publicado originalmente por cybvep:

My idea is to solve this with an additional ammo type for Class 4 animals. ATM .45-70 is good for Class 2 and 3 animals, but it fails against moose, bison, buffalo etc.

I agree, to make the 45-70 viable against Moose, Bison, Lions, larger bears etc, they should give it 45-90 WCF rounds, and to prevent it from killing the new 300 magnum I'd say make its effective 100% quick kill range 100-120 meters.

[jeff1963]

You cannot compare a 45-70 against a .300 Weatherby. It's like comparing big fat apples to really fast tangerines. ;-) They will never be on par with each other. That said they will both kill a Bison.

[florble mcfumperdink]

Publicado originalmente por jeff1963:

You cannot compare a 45-70 against a .300 Weatherby. It's like comparing big fat apples to really fast tangerines. ;-) They will never be on par with each other. That said they will both kill a Bison.

Love the fruit comparison, and yes the weatherby and the 45-70 can't really be compared beyond "Big gun fire big bullet and make big boom" because both have their own niche for use. For instance the weatherby magnum is a long range flat shooting, heavy hitting hunting rifle, practically a marksman's rifle with how accurate it is, and the 45-70 is the old, rough, close range cannon that doesn't really do too well past medium-close range because it fires a slug the size of a small house that is highly susceptible to the sheer force of nature called gravity and also likes to throw away its energy as it travels downrange.

[McSqurl Nugget]

Publicado originalmente por florble mcfumperdink:

I agree, to make the 45-70 viable against Moose, Bison, Lions, larger bears etc, they should give it 45-90 WCF rounds, and to prevent it from killing the new 300 magnum I'd say make its effective 100% quick kill range 100-120 meters.

won't work. you can't shoot 45-90 from a 45-70, rounds are too long. You can shoot a 45-70 in a 45-90 though.

45-70's are brush guns, there's no way in hell they're on par with a .300 Weatherby. Can i get what you're smokin? :P

a 45-70 in the hands of an expert marksman, that knows the range he or she is shooting, and is familiar with the extreme drop of the heavy 45-70 slug was said to be able to hit a 6ft square target at 600 yards reliably. a human sized target could be hit reliably at 300 yards. These were all in shooting rangers. Actual field tests reduced that distance to about 150 yards for a deer sized target. and this was with the 45-70 government, or 45-70.405 (45 caliber, 70 grain powder, 405 grain slug)

Thew newer 45-70 shell could do long range, these same marksmen could double the range of the 45-70.405 government using the 45-70.500

I would have preferred the Weatherby over the 45-70, Weatherby would be the go to gun for all game i think, should give integrity of 100 on everything from blacktail to cape buffalo. It's still the preferred safari gun.

[florble mcfumperdink]

Publicado originalmente por Kormath75:

Publicado originalmente por florble mcfumperdink:

I agree, to make the 45-70 viable against Moose, Bison, Lions, larger bears etc, they should give it 45-90 WCF rounds, and to prevent it from killing the new 300 magnum I'd say make its effective 100% quick kill range 100-120 meters.

won't work. you can't shoot 45-90 from a 45-70, rounds are too long. You can shoot a 45-70 in a 45-90 though.

45-70's are brush guns, there's no way in hell they're on par with a .300 Weatherby. Can i get what you're smokin? :P

a 45-70 in the hands of an expert marksman, that knows the range he or she is shooting, and is familiar with the extreme drop of the heavy 45-70 slug was said to be able to hit a 6ft square target at 600 yards reliably. a human sized target could be hit reliably at 300 yards. These were all in shooting rangers. Actual field tests reduced that distance to about 150 yards for a deer sized target. and this was with the 45-70 government, or 45-70.405 (45 caliber, 70 grain powder, 405 grain slug)

Thew newer 45-70 shell could do long range, these same marksmen could double the range of the 45-70.405 government using the 45-70.500

I would have preferred the Weatherby over the 45-70, Weatherby would be the go to gun for all game i think, should give integrity of 100 on everything from blacktail to cape buffalo. It's still the preferred safari gun.

Speaking of Safari guns, I'm kinda scratching my head as to why a bolt-action .300 Magnum wasn't added with the Savanna map, considering the incredibly long history that it and rifles like it have with hunting in Africa.

Edit: Thanks for the elaboration on the range and capabilities of my beloved lever-action brush gun :D