What's the deal with Amateur AI?

[Kasper Kroenen]

I've been playing quite some time now, was on a rolling spree for days and getting the hang out how to play against the Amateur AI's difficulty, but it's been a few days now that no matter what I do, I lose...

It pulls of moves I've never seen him do, the usual blunders it sometimes would take in stress situation are almost gone and I feel like I'm playing 2 difficulties higher for some reason. It's so puzzling, because it plays completely different then how I'm used to play on such difficulty!

Even when I'm close to winning, it pulls the craziest tactics to make me stalemate him. Before, I often stalemated because I was moving too fast and not counting squares, but now it actually started pulling quite some clever tricks to make me stalemate him...

When I first started playing this game, Amateur AI of course kicked my ass... he went easily past 1400 ELO, then once I started to get the hang out of the game, I managed to bring it back down to 1200's... now it seems to go back over 1300 with ease, as if he has been replaced by something completely different.

I mean, I'd understand I guess, if I took a break and then returned and got used to a different AI/ game-difficulty/ etc... but I'm playing on a regular daily level and this is quite perplexing...

[Ziggy]

As far as I am aware the Elo is just a number in this game and doesn't affect the strength of the AI at a given level. So, Amateur (or any other) should always play at the same strength. I could be wrong but from what I have read and experienced this seems to be the case.

Are you encountering more stalemates when there are only a few pieces on the board? I only ask because computers are deadly in this scenario. Chess is partially solvable using endgame tablebases. I have no idea what Chess Ultra uses and these tables require a lot of storage. For example, I have a set of 5-piece tables that I use with Fritz and it occupies some 7 GB. Recently 6 and 7 piece offerings are available now. The latter comprise TB of information.

In short, expect a computer to play very well during endgame. In a game with few pieces remaining , try driving your opponents king against the edge of the board with not just checks but restrictive moves also.

Not sure I can add anything else without knowing a bit more about the types of games that the AI is forcing stalemate. Maybe let us know more detail?

[Kasper Kroenen]

Originally posted by Ziggy:

As far as I am aware the Elo is just a number in this game and doesn't affect the strength of the AI at a given level. So, Amateur (or any other) should always play at the same strength. I could be wrong but from what I have read and experienced this seems to be the case.

Are you encountering more stalemates when there are only a few pieces on the board? I only ask because computers are deadly in this scenario. Chess is partially solvable using endgame tablebases. I have no idea what Chess Ultra uses and these tables require a lot of storage. For example, I have a set of 5-piece tables that I use with Fritz and it occupies some 7 GB. Recently 6 and 7 piece offerings are available now. The latter comprise TB of information.

In short, expect a computer to play very well during endgame. In a game with few pieces remaining , try driving your opponents king against the edge of the board with not just checks but restrictive moves also.

Not sure I can add anything else without knowing a bit more about the types of games that the AI is forcing stalemate. Maybe let us know more detail?

Actually, the Amateur AI is rather stupid in End-game. Also, It seemed to go back to normal the moment I restarted the game and I could instantly tell the AI was regular Amateur again as I won 4 times in a row after restarting. Altough I'm SURE I picked Amateur each time before I posted this topic.

Also, funny thing is, after restarting the ELO rating of the Amateur AI was different then it was before. Like, I have no idea what sometimes seems to happen lol. I had times where the AI got negative ELO for winning and other weird stuff happening.

Good thing out of this weird experience? Amateur AI seems now rather really REALLY easy after that, whatever oddity happend to the AI, so at the end the sudden "wtf" moment I experienced with whatever was going on, didn't go to waste ^^. I learned quite a bit. Altough, I wish I still recorded some footage lol... I felt like I was going insane xD.

[Ziggy]

You aware that you can dump your games as PGN by copying to clipboard? To be honest I've found the AI strength fairly consistent but I haven't had this particular program for long and only to play with a buddy online and the occasional casual play against the AI, so my experience is limited.

The Elo system in this game is frankly, bizarre, and as for the computer it seems almost random and independent of a win or loss. I'm used to programs like Fritz or Shredder adjusting Elo to my playing strength.

If you are finding Amateur too easy with its game changing blunders, Challenger is a little more stable. While it does look pretty the AI play is pretty poor compared with other chess progs.

Plenty out there to choose from, ranging from free to insanely expensive. Shredder Classic is a relatively inexpensive program with many features of the top end software, though it hasn't been updated for a few years. It'll adjust to your playing strength also. Fritz is more costly but it does come with a massive local database of games and some very cool analysis tools.

[Kasper Kroenen]

Originally posted by Ziggy:

You aware that you can dump your games as PGN by copying to clipboard? To be honest I've found the AI strength fairly consistent but I haven't had this particular program for long and only to play with a buddy online and the occasional casual play against the AI, so my experience is limited.

The Elo system in this game is frankly, bizarre, and as for the computer it seems almost random and independent of a win or loss. I'm used to programs like Fritz or Shredder adjusting Elo to my playing strength.

If you are finding Amateur too easy with its game changing blunders, Challenger is a little more stable. While it does look pretty the AI play is pretty poor compared with other chess progs.

Plenty out there to choose from, ranging from free to insanely expensive. Shredder Classic is a relatively inexpensive program with many features of the top end software, though it hasn't been updated for a few years. It'll adjust to your playing strength also. Fritz is more costly but it does come with a massive local database of games and some very cool analysis tools.

Oh, ye, the PNG... But I still can't fluintly read "chess language". I only have like 36 hours of chess experience by now? So ye, fairly new. So terms like Fritz and Shredder are unknown to me.

I do know there are potentially far better "chess" games out there, but I just liked the fancy art of the game and the classical music ^^. If I was going to start somewhere, atleast let it look beautiful ^^'.

True though, the Amateur AI got kinda easy AFTER that strange AI development I experienced, so actually in hindsight... I didn't mind it, I was just suprised... but it actually learned me quite some new things even when it was kicking my ass. It was so random it felt unreal, but tbh? I wouldn't mind it if this game has a "secret" code that Amateur AI suddenly becomes like super-challenging for a while to catch you off-guard, lol.

Of course, I only play with couple of friends. Sadly, Chess isn't really seen as a "fun" game for most, especially PC-gamers. Even among board-games, most people don't think of "chess" but more in the league of "zombiecide, Arkham Horror, etc..." and I'm quite social-anxious to play with actual strangers yet. I think I would just start making huge mistakes because I know it is an actual person on the other side that might get annoyed at me.

I know the number one rule on the internet is to not care what others think, but it still affects me sadly enough. Even when I was playing with my friend I felt my heart racing that I was going to mess everything up that I learned so far.

[Ziggy]

Not at all, I hear you about playing online with strangers, in today's toxic gamer culture, but if you have some friends to play with problem solved. Most folks who play online are actually pretty friendly but like everything else online you will sadly, encounter ♥♥♥♥♥ too. If you've gotten this far after only a few hours you are doing well ! Keep it up :)

I can understand why chess might appear as boring or unfathomable to the uninitiated but I recently persuaded a friend to get back into it and now he's literally an addict! I think the common perception is that it is boring because it can be slow and another friend once asked how I cope with an opponent taking so long to move. Of course I pointed out that while my opponent is thinking, I am too! Fairly obvious but many don't realise it's nothing like many other board games. I find it to be a very exciting game but you have to try it first to experience the buzz.

Fritz, Shredder, Stockfish, Komodo, Houdini, etc are some examples of chess engines (the AI) which can be incorporated into a GUI for play / analysis. Most can be purchased as a complete package and are inter-changeable e.g I have half a dozen alternate engines installed within the Fritz GUI. A quick google will throw up plenty of free engines and interfaces. Lots on mobile now too and many free. Recently tried Small Chess and have been very impressed so far. Lots of features and a very clean interface.

Reading chess notation is a cinch. It looks far more complicated than it seems. Some good explanations online (and in many chess books). I'll wager you'll pick it up in minutes. You can also import your games from Chess Ultra into other programs too, via the PGN output.

[Kasper Kroenen]

Originally posted by Ziggy:

Not at all, I hear you about playing online with strangers, in today's toxic gamer culture, but if you have some friends to play with problem solved. Most folks who play online are actually pretty friendly but like everything else online you will sadly, encounter ♥♥♥♥♥ too. If you've gotten this far after only a few hours you are doing well ! Keep it up :)

I can understand why chess might appear as boring or unfathomable to the uninitiated but I recently persuaded a friend to get back into it and now he's literally an addict! I think the common perception is that it is boring because it can be slow and another friend once asked how I cope with an opponent taking so long to move. Of course I pointed out that while my opponent is thinking, I am too! Fairly obvious but many don't realise it's nothing like many other board games. I find it to be a very exciting game but you have to try it first to experience the buzz.

Fritz, Shredder, Stockfish, Komodo, Houdini, etc are some examples of chess engines (the AI) which can be incorporated into a GUI for play / analysis. Most can be purchased as a complete package and are inter-changeable e.g I have half a dozen alternate engines installed within the Fritz GUI. A quick google will throw up plenty of free engines and interfaces. Lots on mobile now too and many free. Recently tried Small Chess and have been very impressed so far. Lots of features and a very clean interface.

Reading chess notation is a cinch. It looks far more complicated than it seems. Some good explanations online (and in many chess books). I'll wager you'll pick it up in minutes. You can also import your games from Chess Ultra into other programs too, via the PGN output.

Well, I played a very casual match with a friend of mine https://www.twitch.tv/videos/796665978.

She hasn't played chess in ages so I was going a lil' bit easy on her, but still managed to sometimes screw things over nevertheless xD.

For some reason, my biggest blunders are often that I mistake a piece for another piece, like I have this very annoying habit to think my rook is actually a bishop...

I've noticed this trend of mine that I often lose a piece as a result, because somehow I'm out of nowhere convinced my rook can move diagonally O_o... I have NO idea why this happens to me that often, lol.


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I tend to really like horses and rooks, but I seem to dislike bishops quite a lot to play them. Maybe I still don't know how to properly use them, but I feel they are very limited, while I love the fact that horses can jump all over the place.

Rooks are just "board-sweepers" as I call them and I try often to keep them alive at all costs.

Be warned, I'm really a rookie, like I only have like 36 hours in this game and those 36 hours are like the only time I actually played chess. Last time I played chess was with my dad when I was like... 12? That was like 18 years ago lol. And my dad showed no mercy nor teached me much ^^'. Also, it was at that time I got sucked into the Halo games on XBOX 360, so chess was a nerd game xD.

[Kasper Kroenen]

Mic. was really quiet because it was like 4:30 am and I live with multiple people in this building so I almost had to whisper ^^'.

[Ziggy]

The bishop and knight (horse) are regarded as being equal in value. Both are powerful in the opening and it's a good idea to develop them before the queen or rooks. Bishops are very good in open positions. In a closed game you might try to fianchetto one or both bishops. That is put them on the a2 / g2 if playing white, or b7 / g7 if playing black. They control the long diagonal and attack and defend at the same time. That way you needn't worry about moving them too much until you become more familiar with their uses. I've often delivered mate with a bishop so don't neglect them.

Rooks are indeed powerful and rarely exchanged for anything less than another rook or queen. Not sure if you are aware of the points value of the pieces? A pawn is worth 1 pawn (obviously) then your knight and bishop are worth 3 pawns, the rook is equivalent to 5 pawns and that deadly lady is worth 9 pawns! Of course, around endgame you will often see experienced players sacrifice valuable pieces to create a mating pattern. The points though, should help you with exchanges early on in the game.

As for mixing up the pieces, it'll come with practice but maybe try changing the set to a different design? I saw in the video that you are using Staunton pieces which is the classic chess design (and what I prefer) but since you are new to the game, the shapes might be confusing you?

Anyway, good to see that you are enjoying the game so much!

[Ziggy]

One other point I should add is that by developing your bishops early, you clear the way for castling.

[Kasper Kroenen]

Originally posted by Ziggy:

One other point I should add is that by developing your bishops early, you clear the way for castling.

Ye, I began using bishops more after learning a bit from Challenger AI... Got quickly above 1200 ELO with the Amateur AI as he was getting rather easy so I moved one position up... Now that Challenger AI lol...

I managed him a couple of times almost to stalemate, but went for the mate but lost as a result... but hey, would have been an easy way out, heh... It's quite fun and I'm learning quite a bit.

Played with a friend of mine that really enjoys chess this time, he knew what he was doing. Did about 2 matches this time. First one I lost because of sheer stupidity when I lost my queen in the most comic way possible xD, second game I checkmated him in 29 moves :D

It's quite odd that I tend to be more focussed with the AI then playing with friends and that I still sometimes do the most epic blunder possible still after all this time!

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/800295430

[Ziggy]

Naturally it will get tougher as you move up AI levels but they will make fewer blunders and start to 'think' more deeply into a position. Which means you won't be forgiven for your own mistakes! It's at this point you'll really start to learn the game in earnest. No pressure to skip levels though if you are happy playing as you are. Once you can consistently beat a particular level, you'll probably want to increase the difficulty anyway. Find what level suits you and just enjoy the game.

[Kasper Kroenen]

Originally posted by Ziggy:

Naturally it will get tougher as you move up AI levels but they will make fewer blunders and start to 'think' more deeply into a position. Which means you won't be forgiven for your own mistakes! It's at this point you'll really start to learn the game in earnest. No pressure to skip levels though if you are happy playing as you are. Once you can consistently beat a particular level, you'll probably want to increase the difficulty anyway. Find what level suits you and just enjoy the game.

ye... I even managed to almost win twice against the Challenger AI, but he is quite... clever in End-games. Did some tricks I didn't know yet that costed me the match lol. But I'm getting there ^^'.

Altough, it feels more like I learn more by getting my butt kicked then by trying to go for stalemate or the easy way and still trying to go for the win, even if it might end up losing, lol.

[Ziggy]

This is precisely why I recommend studying your games afterwards. Not just to review your own play but that of your opponent. If they play a nasty trick, as you say, ask how they set it up. Can you defend against such a move or even employ it against your opponent. I ended up in a nasty pin a few nights ago while playing against the computer and then managed to use the same tactic on my opponent in a subsequent match. So by reviewing your games not only do you have new tricks up your sleeves but will be prepared for your opponent doing the same. As for endgame, computers play well here, especially with equal material or position. Chess Ultra does seem relatively weak compared to other engines in endgame however.

[Kasper Kroenen]

I just beat the Challenger AI for the first time! managed to promote my last pawn to a queen and mated him with my king and queen. Had a horse in reserve, but I was nail-biting careful in the end-game. Took me 51.9 hours to go from Apprentice to Challenger and win on the last part O_o. From almost never having played chess, I'm quite impressed on myself ^^.

Had to make some not so fun sacrifices, but hey... I won finally ^^. Feels good :D