Is the cloning machine too abusable and overpowered?

[Captain Camper]

After playing 60+ hours of Streets of Rogue, I feel that I can finish the game fairly easily with any character just by abusing the clone machines to duplicate the most efficient item for my character and build. For example, cloning bananas is relatively cheap and great to do for the Gorilla (especially with mini fridge). However, some items are just really strong and cloning them multiple times is, imo, just plain overpowered and abusable. Examples are the invincibility syringes, the giantizer pills, the rage potions (insert them into building ventilation to wipe out an entire building and sometimes the street outside it), and even hambugers when you have a mini fridge (cheap clone cost), or medkits if you have lots of money.

I feel that cloning the really powerful items removes the element of randomness in a roguelike game. You don't really care what's in the store once you have your go-to items and can clone them over and over. Mostly the stores are there to get the item "blueprint" you want to clone, and once you have all the blueprints you want, you're good. You don't end up using the crappier items because you don't need to. If there were no clone machines, you'd have to consider buying the mediocre items to use if that's all you had available as options. It would force more decision making in the game about how to approach challenges instead of hoard-cloning a bunch of hilariously powerful items (nothing wrong with powerful items if they're rare) to solve all your problems with a laugh.

My most recent playthrough with Gorilla, I had something like 9 giantizer pills and 5 invincibility syringes when I got to stage 5-1, and then decided to just go king kong on everyone for fun and smashed everything to bits. I often feel the last levels are the easiest in the game because you've been able to amass so much money to clone so many strong items by the time you get there. I might be remembering this wrong, but I recall that clone machines used to only clone you as a person and not items. I don't know if the change needs to be reverted to no more item cloning, but maybe limiting item cloning to a single item per machine might balance things out. Or just make cloning much, much more expensive when cloning items.

I love this game a lot but do feel the clone machines trivialize many aspects of the game. I know I could just stop using clone machines, but I'm posting this because I feel that all of our feedback is useful to help maintain the appeal and longevity of the game for years to come.

[Ansam]

With 300+ hours, I say no. It's effictively an Ammo Dispenser, but for consumable items. It's a shop for characters that can't talk to shopkeepers. Decreases RNG, but you still have to find the item in the first place, and have the spare gold for it's price multiplier. It's limited to 3 items per floor. 6 if you're lucky and find another.

The thing is, when you become quite familiar with what the game has, it's all much easier than it seems. I really like the Full Health For All because of this.

If anything is the issue, it's the item itself you're cloning. Giantizer has exceptional value for any character, steamroll the floor for a return on it's cost. etc.

[Baines]

You don't have to use the cloning machine.

Honestly, I probably don't actually need 95% of the stuff I clone. Outside of the earliest levels, the main benefit of the cloning machine for me is that it neutralizes my tendency to horde powerful items well beyond their useful periods.

Without cloning, if I find a Rage Potion, I'll be tempted to horde it, because if I use it now then I won't have it for a future situation where it would be more useful. When I get a second potion, then I'll use the first. With cloning, I clone several Rage Potions and use them, because I know I can always get more as long as I keep one in my inventory (and have money.)

But what does that ultimately mean? It means I finish the game with 15 unused Rage Potions. Yes, Rage Potions are powerful when used intelligently, but you don't really need them, and it seems like you get fewer beneficial spots to use them later in the game. And after doing a few Rage Potion focused runs, I often don't even bother to use them more than a handful of times in a run. Not much more often than you'd feasibly be able to acquire without cloning.

The same goes for other cloning targets. I cloned a bunch of Resurrection Shampoos one time, and never died once that game. I cloned and bought a bunch of Time Bombs one game, and used I think one before I died.

A couple of times I tried cloning a lot of First Aid Kits, only to find that it wasn't worth it. Cloning First Aid Kits takes a lot of money, and you end up permanently devoting one of your limited inventory spots of an item that you will honestly rarely use. You still have to carry cheap heals for when you don't need to heal 40hp at a time, and it was ultimately more effective to just stock those cheap heals and forgo stockpiling First Aid Kits.

Cloning is already more expensive than buying an object, and you can generally find a wide variety of useful objects in a level. As for the last levels being easier, I think that is more due to building an effective kit by that point than by cloning.

As for preventing you from using less effective options, I don't know that not having a cloning machine would make me more likely to use them. I'll generally just fall back onto easier brute force tactics (hitting someone with a baseball bat.)

[Captain Camper]

Ansam, as a 300+ hour player, I find it odd that you would consider 3 items per floor (6 if you're lucky) to be a trivial number for item duplication. And I don't agree that having a powerful item like the giantizer is an issue when the item is a rare item. Your perspective of the giantizer being an issue because it is powerful for any character and has a return on investment is, imo, only an issue if you eliminate the rarity of the item and turn it into a common item. And it becomes very common when you can clone 3 per level.

The problem from a development perspective that I have with the clone machine is that it makes it difficult to balance item power based on rarity when you can duplicate items on each floor. There are tons of roguelikes that use item rarity to make getting a certain item feel really special and exciting, but in Streets of Rogue you know you're gonna get a rage potion or gigantizer or invincible item early on at some point, and things like bananas and hamburgers are already common items. You just keep pushing the value to exceed the original balance design for your character build (I.e. Gorilla and mini fridge in the case of bananas).

Furthermore, I'd like to stress that I recognize that many of us veteran players don't need the clone machine. We can beat the game with a baseball bat and a stat of 1 in every stat. But that doesn't mean the clone machine isn't providing a much easier path through the game than is probably intended (imo). Just because we don't need the clone machine to beat the game doesn't invalidate the power of a machine that allows you to eliminate RNG entirely and have any item you desire by the last few levels.

[fmasroor]

Originally posted by Ansam:

With 300+ hours, I say no. It's effictively an Ammo Dispenser, but for consumable items. It's a shop for characters that can't talk to shopkeepers. Decreases RNG, but you still have to find the item in the first place, and have the spare gold for it's price multiplier. It's limited to 3 items per floor. 6 if you're lucky and find another.

The thing is, when you become quite familiar with what the game has, it's all much easier than it seems. I really like the Full Health For All because of this.

If anything is the issue, it's the item itself you're cloning. Giantizer has exceptional value for any character, steamroll the floor for a return on it's cost. etc.

Also with me having 300+ hrs I agree

[Ｂｏｏｂｓ]

279 hours here, no. i don't think clone machine is too op

[Ansam]

Originally posted by Captain Camper:

Ansam, as a 300+ hour player, I find it odd that you would consider 3 items per floor (6 if you're lucky) to be a trivial number for item duplication. And I don't agree that having a powerful item like the giantizer is an issue when the item is a rare item. Your perspective of the giantizer being an issue because it is powerful for any character and has a return on investment is, imo, only an issue if you eliminate the rarity of the item and turn it into a common item. And it becomes very common when you can clone 3 per level.

It is trivial except when said item is just a "you win". Or in the case of grenades, the Ammo Dispenser with a Rocket Launcher is a better alternative. We have 2 different ideas on how the balance should be done, nothing odd. I think the items should be tools and not win conditions. And you think RNG should define the item's potential. What I like about this roguelike so much, is the ability to defy RNG.

Originally posted by Captain Camper:

The problem from a development perspective that I have with the clone machine is that it makes it difficult to balance item power based on rarity when you can duplicate items on each floor. There are tons of roguelikes that use item rarity to make getting a certain item feel really special and exciting, but in Streets of Rogue you know you're gonna get a rage potion or gigantizer or invincible item early on at some point, and things like bananas and hamburgers are already common items. You just keep pushing the value to exceed the original balance design for your character build (I.e. Gorilla and mini fridge in the case of bananas).

The easy answer is don't balance by Rarity, then. Otherwise, prices could be adjusted. Rage Potion and Giantizer are Drug Dealer items, as is Cyanide. I only take issue with Giantizer since you don't need a delivery system for it to be useful. The rarest good item is probably Invincibility Syringe, since it's not actually a rare item, but a variant of an uncommon item. Once you know which variant it is, then it's exploitable for cheap, and selling it is not worth. That sounds like an item design flaw.

Originally posted by Captain Camper:

Furthermore, I'd like to stress that I recognize that many of us veteran players don't need the clone machine. We can beat the game with a baseball bat and a stat of 1 in every stat. But that doesn't mean the clone machine isn't providing a much easier path through the game than is probably intended (imo). Just because we don't need the clone machine to beat the game doesn't invalidate the power of a machine that allows you to eliminate RNG entirely and have any item you desire by the last few levels.

So then, consider the game without a cloning machine. As a Gorilla, would there be any value for the Sell-O-Matic or money in general? Would newer players find the game too hard, just reeeeing at these bad quest rewards until they have enough nuggs for better unlocks? The game allows and encourages hoarding till the last few levels where difficulty really appears. Maybe inventory is too lenient, maybe the end to forgiving, or the beginning too full of loot. Works well for Zombie at least.

[Ｂｏｏｂｓ]

well, if you're worry about hording, the simplest solution would be: give a cloned item "clone" tag, so it can't be used to clone again, and force the player to use the said item and find a new copy of original to clone (plus inventory management since it'll take one more space for each clone type) e.g. you clone a fud > a fud disappear > you got 2x fud (clone) which have the same effect as fud (grill fud (clone) will give you the hot fud (clone))