Fortnight Discussion: Character Progression

[Madguy]

As I’ve added new levels over the course of the last couple years, Streets of Rogue has become a much lengthier experience. However, I haven’t really altered the character progression system to account for higher play times, and as a result I feel like the overall experience is a bit more “flat” than I’d like.

I’ve been thinking about how this would work, and I wrote the following on another forum:

One potential way to improve "progression" might be to tailor some of the player's choosable end-level traits toward improving that specific character type, based on their starting traits and special abilities. For example, a character that starts with Camouflage might see get the option of increasing camouflage time, or maybe the option of increasing their speed when stealthed, or something kinda-sorta related like "enemies don't hear noises when you destroy objects". Each starting trait/ability would have a series of linked traits that the player could potentially receive as upgrades throughout the game. But, these upgrades would need to be varied enough from game to game that a character's progress wouldn't feel too samey each game.

Other thoughts - The power of the upgrade could be largely based on the player’s current XP level, though it would still be possible (just not as likely) to receive powerful upgrades early on. And, I’d still want to make traits available to the player that are completely unrelated to their starting build -- just maybe place a bigger emphasis on traits that the player would be likely to find useful.

Also, I’ll be adding a whole bunch of new traits in the near future, so expect a bunch more variety pretty soon.

I’d like to hear your thoughts on this topic, especially if you’ve spent a lot of time playing rogue-lites, or just spent a lot of time playing Streets of Rogue!

[Munisylc]

You could make it so that, after leveling up, a window pops up before the trait window, giving you a list of options, with the options being:

- Pick 1 additional trait

- Restore Health

- Gain 40 Gold (+10 for each completed floor)

- Gain XP equal to 10% of your current XP bar.

===

You could even have this noted in-character, with each choice titled like:

- Training Session

- Take a Break

- Start Fundraiser

- Hit the books!

[Ketobor]

Rather than upgrading related to levels, which would encourage more grinding, I would recommend 'mega traits' of a sort.

They could be given after you pass each Stage, and give larger-scale traits, like special-power upgrades and the like that have more distinctive changes to play.

[Busts-A-Nut]

In terms of traits, it would be nice if after you get a certain amount of them (around 2-3 sounds like enough) you get an extra trait option wich is an upgraded version of one you already have, making them appear randomly with the other traits would probably make them too rare to be even reliable and would make it harder to get the traits you're looking for.
Taking this option would obviously prevent you from taking one of the base 3 available per lvl-up

[jacojerb]

Though this might be a lot of work, I'd like it if you could get certian traits through completing certian actions. I mean, not have everything happen through a "Choose your own trait" system when finishing a level

For example, playing a docter, if you witness a certian amount of gruesome deaths, say through explosions or whatnot, you could unlock the "Mad doctor" trait, which would allow you to use melee weapons, or something like that

Another example: getting damaged by werewolves could have a small chance to have you become a werewolf, replacing your ability with that of a were wolf

It doesn't have to be all positive. I would love some negative traits as well. For example, taking a lot of drugs could get you addicted

[Aquillion]

This is tangentially-related, but I would suggest adding support for players having multiple activated abilities (letting them switch between them via the inventory menu or some such.)

That would allow players to take additional activated abilities as level-up rewards (some might have prerequisites), or to make custom characters with multiple activated abilities. More importantly to this discussion, it would also enable "multi-class" characters who could then access the upgrade-trees associated with each of their activated abilities (but, of course, they'd have to split their development between them.)

This would help with the problem of characters feeling more repetitive. It would allow for level-up rewards that could genuinely, dramatically change how your character plays. At the same time, since you could only equip one activated ability at a time, and they'd presumably share a cooldown, they wouldn't necessarily be too powerful.

Obviously not all abilities would be suitable to offer as level-up rewards.

[semmiesem9]

A possible thing you could make is that things some Traits change are instead things you can level up, and having the Trait just makes you max level in that from the start. So at the end of the level you can't pick a trait, but you can upgrade those 'traits'. For example, at the end of the level the game give you the opportunity to upgrade Longer Status Effects, Blends in Nicely, and Medical professional. Upgrading them would increase their effects, such as status effects being increasingly longer or healing more and more HP from an ally, from 25 to 50 to 100%. It would have three levels to become maximum power. To prevent becoming really weak from this possible change, you would be able to upgrade three points at a time, and choose from four traits by default.

[Vivitan]

i'd rather have my character stay at the same level of capabilities throughout the game, and instead have stealth and combat mechanics improved, to make it less of a numbers game

[semmiesem9]

You could just have a lot more traits added, some plain ones and some complex cool ones. The chance for complexer ones to show up increases with your level.

[Hamster?????]

alot of the ideas mentioned are pretty neat. Although I feel any changes made to the progression system from here on out should be done with small scale tweaks and adjustments as I feel that this can definitely have a strong impact on how the game will play out (whether that's good or bad can be figured through testing and feedback on changes made).

Good luck on your quest!

[Aquillion]

Oh, another suggestion: Have occasional scientists who, for a hefty price, offer to "respec" you by replacing a trait with another level-up pick or something of that nature. This would provide a gold sink and would help smooth out unlucky results slightly.

Also, possibly change Potential to Not Suck to let players pick where the stat point they gain goes. Right now it's just not very fun, most of the time. Being able to customize your Slum Dweller's stats as they grow would be more interesting and would make it more fun to play one.

[Crimson Cube]

This might be a bit too ambitious but my idea is for each character to have 3 "trait paths" they could take (well, it doesn't have to be exactly 3 but that seems about balanced to me) in addition to current traits.

Basically whenever player levels up they still choose their traits from random 3 at the end of the level as usual but the first time they level up after choicing the trait they choose to follow one of the three paths. So from now on their choice will look like this:

• General trait
  
• General trait
  
• Random trait from path they chose

So, what would those trait paths actually be? You can think of them as specializations for classes. Using another example, Hacker's trait paths could be:

• General improvements of hacking - faster hacking, more interactions with currently hackable objects etc.
  
• Inside hacking - more indoor objects are hackable? Generators, flamethrower turrets, stoves etc.
  
• Outside hacking - perhaps being able to hack entire floor in a way? Kinda like power boxes currently but more powerful, disabling all cameras in an area etc.

Doing it like this provides the players a choice – do they want to get overall stronger or do they want to follow a set path of specific abilities?

[JP]

As I have played over 200 hours of this game, the most important aspect is keeping the characters true to their playstyles while also allowing for customisation in your traits and playstyle with said character. Slum Dweller is obviously the most versatile character, being able to play both stealth and "loud". However, someone like Wrestler will struggle with stealth, meaning that they can only play loud and Doctor is the same but for stealth.

What I'm getting at is that when you have someone like Doctor and the only traits you can take are traits like Lonliness Killer, Long Lunge and Wall's Worst Nightmare, although this is unlikely and will probably not happen, it still takes away from their playstyle as they have got basically been given a useless trait. Obviously the ability to remove traits is already in the game, (although I choose not to use it due to how annoying it is to get to as you often just want to choose another character and start again) this might not be enough for keeping characters good with their levels of progression.

The trait system is good, it adds randomisation and customisation to an already very random game. (Which is good) However, a more consistent method of gaining abilties would be useful, and abilities which tailor to the playstyle of your character. Ability/Trait Upgrades a good idea for this, at maybe every 3rd level (twice per full run, maybe three times), each character gets to upgrade their ability (if they have one). This would be as said, extending the time of camo, reducing cooldown on chloroform, arresting faster, sucking blood to heal you for more, steal 2 items at once, less self damage on Zombie Phlegm, etc. This would mostly depend on the character and their abilities.

Other characters who don't have an ability (Slum, Soldier, Gangsters, etc) could maybe be given a Stat Boost to a stat of your choice, or could be given ways to upgrade their capabilities, Soldier could recieve more Machine Gun ammo, Gangster could get a free gangster every level (Basically Lonliness Killer) and Scientist could get more ammo on his Shrink and Freeze Rays.

These kind of buffs to chararacters means that they don't get stuff they don't need and become more powerful as they progress while still being able to stay true to their playstyle.

[Aquillion]

One idea: Categorize traits according to the four stats (plus 'general', since not every trait will fit a stat.) The higher a given stat is, the more likely you are to be offered a trait categorized under that stat; conversely, the lower it is, the less likely you are to be offered one. If all your traits are low, you would get mostly 'general' traits.

This would mean that wrestlers would be more likely to get melee-oriented traits than gun ones, while doctors (who have low melee and low firearms) would be unlikely to get combat-oriented traits at all.

Of course, the game would also need more traits to keep this from making characters seem more same-y on account of generally getting offered similar traits every time.

Also: Possibly sometimes offer stat increases on level-up. While previously too boring, they become more interesting if they alter the traits you get going forwards (so taking +2 firearms would mean you will also get more firearm traits later on.)

Maybe add some new stats (since they encompass broad categories of traits):

Stealth affects the noise you make and the distance at which people see you.

Charisma affects your ability to convince / intimidate people, the prices of goods and services, and the impact things have on your electability. Traits related to improving people's disposition to you or avoiding angering them fall under Charisma.

Leadership determines the number of followers you can have, affects the price of hiring followers, and improves your electability. (The Team Building Expert trait now gives +2 Leadership.) All follower-related traits fall under Leadership, which ensures that follower-oriented characters will be more likely to get them.

[Boggy]

I'd love to see a large class based/whatever upgrade after you complete the end level to give incentive to play through again. This could be something god-like or game breaking but since you've "done all the work" it would make the next play through feel quicker and have more energy. I see this as having the most impact with the least development/worrying about balancing.

For example:

Gorillas can smash enemies twice as far and through walls easier.

Ninjas could have a super upgrade where he gains more elements of stealth (walking through ppl, like before the nerf). Throwing stars.

Zombies special is vastly more effective/rapid fire/increased follower count/walking speed.

Hackers go full neo and hack ppls minds or slow down bullets.

Scientists could invent nano-bots that dissolve walls and give electric things life (atms now come to life and are your followers, shooting money at ppl.

Drug dealers - think alcopone where the new goal is to take over/employ the blahds and crepes and get riiiich.

Cannibals gain a strength/speed by eating ppls hearts.

Bartenders become perfect pick up artists that can gain plenty of female followers that attack other females out of jealousy.

Solider gets infinite bullets, grenades or gets a mecha suit that can charge through walls+shoot stuff.

Blahds/crepes auto recruit followers on eye contact and have large increase to follower count.

Theif can steal everything including clothes and weapons(skyrim).

Shopkeeper can buy other shops and start making insane money with franchises.

Doctor has flesh eating virus with antidote that he can give to who he chooses.

Cop can now be "dirty" and affiliate with blahds, crepes for doing dirty jobs.

Vampire can transform into nosferatu and shoot life draining lasers (ie: werewolf)

Wrestler has loyal fans/new finishing move. He could gain random onlookers as followers/fans after using said move. His fans could 'mimick' him wrestling and use move to attack enemies.

Comedian is always successful, making ppl piss there pants on the spot.

Jock can throw footbal that ricochets off ppl to other ppl, sending them into a dizzy state.

Shapeshifter can lay eggs, allowing these new shapeshifters to be followers having a mind of their own when it comes to taking ppls bodies. (incubation time).

Inv banker, can amass money by approaching ppl with a 'great investment opportunity' which he could either honour or not - he may have a mob on his hands if he doesn't.

Werewolf never gets dizzy. His growl could make ppl freeze with fear.

Slavemasters collars could have special powers, allowing slaves a special ability (electro touch).


DROPS MIC.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

One way I would look at it is make more use of the XP/Level System.

After the latest release, and a quick hour-and-a-half run with a custom character:
- Zombies Ate my Game Balance
- Infinite Ammo
- No Disasters.

-- 'The Marksman'
- Doesn't Speak English
- Max shooting stats
- Starts with a Tranq Gun and Skeleton Key

I was able to reach level 11 or 12 before finishing the game from the sheer amount of KNOCKOUTS I had pushing my way through. And from my experience from all the play-throughs I've had in this game, the level system could stand to do more than max your health, give you nuggets, and give you a trait to take at the end of the level.

A Level System implies that you're improving. Getting better at being you. Personally, to keep from too much overlap with existing mechanics such as boosting one of the four key stats, I'd actually go with boosting some of the more passive features of the game.

Any one or more of the following as applicable. As a percentage that is calculated off level.

1: Longer active times for special abilities with countdowns.
Let's say each level gives you 5 percent. So if you have a 10 second active time on something, being level 2 will increase that to 11 seconds. That's not a lot, but it IS only level 2. Something you can achieve on floor 1-1 easily.


2: Longer 'positive' status effects conversly with shorter 'negative' status effects. More regen, shorter 'poison' status, etc.


3: Shorter cool downs on special abilities.
If we stick with 'each level is 5%', then by level 10, a special with a cooldown is halved.

4: Faster 'doing something' bar.
I'm starting to really like how easily the 5% rule would work with a lot of things. In this case, as you level, the doing something bar goes ever that much faster. Take a cop, for example. If you arrest someone early in the game, you take a moment to cuff them. If you were at say, level 10. That cuffing operation would procede at 150% speed. Nimble Fingers beefs this trait up separate, but it would be an interesting combination to be a level 10 with NF applied. Essentially, the cuffing action of a cop would be like pulling an Inspector Zenigatta from Lupin III. (Zennigatta is the GOD of cuffing people. He can THROW handcuffs at you as a takedown.) You practically do a leg sweep and slap cuffs on them at the same time, the Doing Something Bar would be so quick.


If you combine all these passives, you actually get a pretty decent addition to the level system that allows your character to progress. You don't have to do anything that actually focuses on adding an ability to a fixed character 'class' or creating character 'tech trees'. Not only have others pointed out that kind of locks in a behavior and makes it less about 'doing everything and anything', but it's not needed.

See, by stat-tweaking the passives, you automatically increase the character-specific abilities of each of the established characters. Cops cuff faster; asassins cloak longer and have shorter cooldowns, zombies nom more health, etc. And the math is simple if you assume the maximum level most runs achieve is going to be 10. Just go 'double and half'.

You also save yourself a lot of trouble trying to put together tables of inter-related traits.

Additionally, you can apply other tweaks. Such as a percentage carrying capacity to weapon amunition and durability. A level 10 soldier would certainly benefit from +50% ammo capacity. Everyone benefits, but a soldier's firearm focused stats are primed to take advantage of that angle more.



It's the kind of thing you've focused on in terms of suggestions. A simple tweak, with massive potential. I would assume that compared to convoluted 'tech trees' where you have to build trait tables, the coding complexity, work time, balance adjustment, and debugging time would be significantly shorter. After all, you' all but just plugging a single math formula in and calling it as a function. (Probably a LIIIIITTLE more complicated than that to ensure the code is robust, but that seems a lot simpler than 'find character class, get table, load trait list, etc...)

So to recap.

- A 'Double/Halve' mechanic based on level value, rooting in an assumed maximum level in a run of (but not restricted to) 10.
- Each Level being 5% improvement in passive parts of a list of stats.
-- Faster Doing Something Bar Speed
-- Faster Special Ability Cooldowns
-- Longer Special Ability Run Times
-- Longer Positive Status Effects
-- Shorter Negative Status Effects
-- More ammo capacity
-- More weapon/armor durability