Balancing issues specifically regarding to pirate queen and reaper, shogun and monkey king

[Lordy]

My bro and i been playing this game really competitively, its been great fun finding out the best strategies and compositions. But we hit some dead ends in regards to the unit balances.

i'll get straight to the point, you can beat the whole of landfall campaigns using only reapers or pirate queen when you can. (possibly black beard as well though havent tried)


Pirate Queen
i used shogun to compare with the pirate queen(pq), i ran a 1v1 for 40 games, the final score was 32 wins to pq, and 8 wins to shogun, even tho shogun is 300 points more.

you might think this is because shogun is used for blocking projectiles.. i tested with musketeer as a consistent damage dealer. shogun survived 16 musket max, pq survived 15 max. pq tank 1 musketeer less then shogun for the price of higher damage and aoe.

shogun is considerably weak after the nerf a long time ago but still doesnt explain how strong pq is to a unit 300 budged more them her.


Reaper
ill compare reaper to a unit with the same cost, monkey king. first, monkey king can tank 2 musket max, reaper can tank 6.

reaper does more individual damage and multiple target/aoe damage than monkey king, this was tested by mammoth and monk, monkey king often lost to the mammoth.

im not even gonna mention reaper's insta kill.......


Im fkin lovin the game so far, the meta being able to shift from bombs to raptors and vampire rushes to ranged units to artillery to BOMB CANNON to musketeers to giants to valkyrie to swordcasters.
but there are still some other weird unit balancing problems that we need to ban just because it is a better version of something else. like tree giants having 50% chance of beating ice giants in a 2v2 fight while 3 tree v 2 ice is a complete roll for the trees. or black beard being able to have a 75% winrate against shogun... 2 shoguns...... even stronger than pq.

i think this game could be played competitively haha if balances are done right. PLS ONLINE OR LOCAL MULTIPLAYER

[Nekogaming1500]

all units have different uses, pirate queen is for crowd control, same with monkey king. Reaper is supposed to be frail to arrows or muskets. Just because it has a bigger price doesn't mean you should compare them as if the bigger price should win.

[Asclepius]

Originally posted by nekogamer1400:

all units have different uses, pirate queen is for crowd control, same with monkey king. Reaper is supposed to be frail to arrows or muskets. Just because it has a bigger price doesn't mean you should compare them as if the bigger price should win.

[phone]

Me and Viper have said this so many times: None of the units are really comparable.

[Cú Cuinn]

Yeah, units are not comparible and their balance should not be determined with duels, but Lordy might have a point. Pirate Queen, Blackbeard, and Reaper, ARE very powerful.

I think of it like how Ullr was super OP when he first came out, but now is priced more reasonably. Newer "hero" units always seem to come out a little under priced at first.

[WagglyJeans4010]

Originally posted by Caduceus:

Me and Viper have said this so many times: None of the units are really comparable.

Sure they are. Comparing units with different niches doesn't work for obvious reasons, but units with the same job should be comparable. Hay Balers, Shield Bearers, and Blunderbusses are reasonably comparable as they all have very similar jobs. Samurai and the Shogun can be compared, as they have the same job. Squires and Clubbers can be compared, as they have almost the same usage and cost.

[Asclepius]

Originally posted by ;1747896471397185894:

Originally posted by Caduceus:

Me and Viper have said this so many times: None of the units are really comparable.

Sure they are. Comparing units with different niches doesn't work for obvious reasons, but units with the same job should be comparable. Hay Balers, Shield Bearers, and Blunderbusses are reasonably comparable as they all have very similar jobs. Samurai and the Shogun can be compared, as they have the same job. Squires and Clubbers can be compared, as they have almost the same usage and cost.

Well, then how are you comparing them? The Hay Baler, Shield Bearers, and Blunderbusses aren't actually that similar when you get nit picky; one has a gun, one has a shield, and another has a stick/sword. Even the way they ranged attacks are different; shields don't stop bullets and can be hit from behind, Hay Balers have full 360 protection, and the Blunderbuss doesn't even have to get that close.

The biggest problem many people run into is they literally compare the units of a same type to one another: Haybaler vs Shield Bearer is an example. This simply is not adequate because one actually has a weapon. The same for the Shogun vs Samurai. The Shogun has a much better deflect, dodge, sword length, and damage on hit. While they are both front line infantry. Their primary use is range deflection, with the Shogun being a little bit more of a flanker.

I'll agree with the squire and clubber though. They are super similar. The clubber is just a little clumsier and probably with less HP.

[Bagel Knackstein]

Originally posted by Caduceus:

Originally posted by nekogamer1400:

all units have different uses, pirate queen is for crowd control, same with monkey king. Reaper is supposed to be frail to arrows or muskets. Just because it has a bigger price doesn't mean you should compare them as if the bigger price should win.

[phone]

Me and Viper have said this so many times: None of the units are really comparable.

Yes, the units in TABS all have unique differences, even though some are slight. You cannot compare two units like Monkey King and the Reaper. Monkey king is a very good unit capable of besting single target enemies, like halberds, enemies at a distance, like archers, or some small groups of enemies. The Reaper can defeat hordes of weak enemies, and sometimes even single high HP enemies. However, both units specialize in different strategies. Reaper is great when fighting hordes, but against ranged based formations will be crushed. Monkey king can sometimes dodge ranged attacks, and has a long leap to close distances and defeat enemies.

There are many more differences, but i’ll keep it short.

[Asclepius]

You know, instead of saying:

Originally posted by Caduceus:

None of the units are really comparable.

I should have said that units of different fighting/defensive styles should not be compared quickly based on small test. For example, a unit with punches should not be compared to a unit with a sword. The same for every other weapon and armor in the game. This is basically a TL:DR of Viper's post above. :P

[WagglyJeans4010]

I think that most TABS units are fairly well balanced, but with the wide range of abilities and weapons, a lot of units get overshadowed by better or just more useful units. Almost every unit has a point where it is useful (except maybe the Ballooner), but when there are units that can do the same task and more for the same cost, the others start to lose usefulness. When you have access to a Hay Baler why would you use a Shield Bearer? When you have access to Fencers and Samurai, why would you use a Shogun? When you have access to Vampires, why use Raptors (besides obvious fun purposes)? Why use Wheelbarrow Dragons at all when they fall over at the first opportunity?

[WagglyJeans4010]

Originally posted by Caduceus:

You know, instead of saying:

Originally posted by Caduceus:

None of the units are really comparable.

I should have said that units of different fighting/defensive styles should not be compared quickly based on small test. For example, a unit with punches should not be compared to a unit with a sword. The same for every other weapon and armor in the game. This is basically a TL:DR of Viper's post above. :P

That's fair

[Asclepius]

Originally posted by WagglyJeans4010:

I think that most TABS units are fairly well balanced, but with the wide range of abilities and weapons, a lot of units get overshadowed by better or just more useful units. Almost every unit has a point where it is useful (except maybe the Ballooner), but when there are units that can do the same task and more for the same cost, the others start to lose usefulness. When you have access to a Hay Baler why would you use a Shield Bearer? When you have access to Fencers and Samurai, why would you use a Shogun? When you have access to Vampires, why use Raptors (besides obvious fun purposes)? Why use Wheelbarrow Dragons at all when they fall over at the first opportunity?

There are many cases where said units perform better.

Shield Bearer: To reduce the cost of the expensive Phalanx formation. Not to mention the shield can block melee attacks, unlike a hay bale. The physical object of the shield prevents the user from dying quickly when it has units pushing forward from behind and from the front. Finally, there is the fact that if a Hay Baler is hit by an arrow. They suffer from a little bit more recoil, which may disrupt the units behind them.

• Reduced cost
  
• Ability to block melee attackers
  
• Survivability in front line combat.
  
• Lacking the recoil of being hit by an arrow.

Shogun: The Shogun has always been a really weird unit. It is either really amazing... or really bad. It is a better flanker than the other two units as it is basically unparalleled at 1v1 combat. The other two units you mention are great, but they can be easily swarmed and slowly killed off compared to a Shogun, which will normally make quick work of spread out units: Both ranged and melee units will struggle with him. (Cause it is on the flank.) Fencers and Samurai are also more ideally suited for the front line because of their cheaper price. The Shogun's low hp pool also makes it so. Why put such a valuable and frail unit on the front line?

I should also point out that generally when it comes to the more expensive units of TABS; Shogun, Sensei, Artemis, Giants, Ullr, Black Beard, Pirate Queen, and more. They often suffer from being overhyped because of their prices. I want to blame people certain Youtubers for this because they're always saying "This is the new best unit" or "This unit is completely broken" in situations when they show the unit doing well but in reality. A couple of Hay Balers and Archers make quick work of Artemis, Sarissa/Fencers shred the Shogun, a single Archer beats the Sensei, and every single one of these mentioned units can be easily swarmed at their price range and cheaper. All the big favorite units are thinly gold plated with a zinc inside. Seriously, name me one unit above 1,000 that can't be swarmed.

• Shogun is just an expensive flanker unit that does well against light hordes.
  
• Due to Shogun's high price and fragility. He isn't suited for the same role Fencers and Samurai are meant for.
  
• You may have an actual case for the Shogun. This is mainly due to fragility. That HP nerf hits hard.

I honestly agree with the Vampire. I do think they are a little overpowered when used in swarms. Here's a list of things they have over every other (similarly) priced unit.

• Speed, which is very important for closing the distances. At this point, nearly all ranged units will miss them if not properly timed.
  
• Health, which is higher than your average unit like the Squire, Clubber, Farmer, Samurai, etc. This becomes a problem because ranged (archers) units can't even kill them if they land a hit. Then there is the fact they can heal between transformations. Thus, this high hp pool leads to some incredible survivability.
  
• Strength, the ability to pin other units to the ground rather quickly. They just hop onto someone and pin them down, which prevents them from attacking.

Those are the three big factors which makes Vampires really good. At least the Bomb on a Stick has a new unit they can counter.

One unit that does seem to do well against Vampires are Valkyries. They don't do amazing when at the same price, but they can kill a Vampire easily compared to most other units.

Also yeah, the Ballooner sucks. If he had some sort of dodge, ran faster, or was able to sneak behind units. He'd be much better.

[Lordy]

the meta right now very much favours melee units unless the budge limit is over around 150,000 where ranged damage and aoe can burst high health units. but below a certain damage output, i found that melee units are dominating. and no matter the build, having a strong front line seems to always win against strong back line

with that said, it is true that units like shogun or monkey king are good in some situations, but those situations never comes against a really competitive player such as my bro. and if these situations do come up, it feels better to just use better units which are more flexible and *consistent*

i found that shogun and monkey king sometimes misses up to 60% of their attacks, when they hit its amazing, when they miss they become useless. pq and reaper is just so much more consistence and reliable. higher damage higher consistency higher hp. just seems like the power gap between these units are too far

tho shogun not bad against artemis

[Lordy]

Originally posted by Caduceus:

Originally posted by WagglyJeans4010:

I think that most TABS units are fairly well balanced, but with the wide range of abilities and weapons, a lot of units get overshadowed by better or just more useful units. Almost every unit has a point where it is useful (except maybe the Ballooner), but when there are units that can do the same task and more for the same cost, the others start to lose usefulness. When you have access to a Hay Baler why would you use a Shield Bearer? When you have access to Fencers and Samurai, why would you use a Shogun? When you have access to Vampires, why use Raptors (besides obvious fun purposes)? Why use Wheelbarrow Dragons at all when they fall over at the first opportunity?

There are many cases where said units perform better.

Shogun: The Shogun has always been a really weird unit. It is either really amazing... or really bad. It is a better flanker than the other two units as it is basically unparalleled at 1v1 combat. The other two units you mention are great, but they can be easily swarmed and slowly killed off compared to a Shogun, which will normally make quick work of spread out units: Both ranged and melee units will struggle with him. (Cause it is on the flank.) Fencers and Samurai are also more ideally suited for the front line because of their cheaper price. The Shogun's low hp pool also makes it so. Why put such a valuable and frail unit on the front line?

I should also point out that generally when it comes to the more expensive units of TABS; Shogun, Sensei, Artemis, Giants, Ullr, Black Beard, Pirate Queen, and more. They often suffer from being overhyped because of their prices. I want to blame people certain Youtubers for this because they're always saying "This is the new best unit" or "This unit is completely broken" in situations when they show the unit doing well but in reality. A couple of Hay Balers and Archers make quick work of Artemis, Sarissa/Fencers shred the Shogun, a single Archer beats the Sensei, and every single one of these mentioned units can be easily swarmed at their price range and cheaper. All the big favorite units are thinly gold plated with a zinc inside. Seriously, name me one unit above 1,000 that can't be swarmed.

Firstly, 1 reaper can easily take out 200,000++ budge worth of vampires and raptors.

Secondly, 1 pirate queen can also take out 200,000+ budget worth of vampires and raptors.

Black beard jumps farther than shogun's dash, black beard does more damage both dps and aoe. more hp more speed more damage. its a shame cus shogun has always been my favorite unit by farr but the cost and lack of consistency and special function is jusst unusable in most matches where 2 players try to outplay each other :|

[Lordy]

Originally posted by Caduceus:

You know, instead of saying:

Originally posted by Caduceus:

None of the units are really comparable.

I should have said that units of different fighting/defensive styles should not be compared quickly based on small test. For example, a unit with punches should not be compared to a unit with a sword. The same for every other weapon and armor in the game. This is basically a TL:DR of Viper's post above. :P

i understand that mechanically all units are different, but their functionality and achievements are similar. kill the enemy, or kill ranged, protect back line so they can kill, kill tanks, kill all gobins, etc. this normally wouldnt be a problem, if i wasnt trying to play this competitively, but to win, i need good units, but more than that, creativity. i need units that can achieve the same thing, just in different and more efficient ways. this game is amazing at that, but im just sad that my favorite unit is so useless :(

[Asclepius]

Originally posted by Lordy:

Originally posted by Caduceus:

There are many cases where said units perform better.

Shogun: The Shogun has always been a really weird unit. It is either really amazing... or really bad. It is a better flanker than the other two units as it is basically unparalleled at 1v1 combat. The other two units you mention are great, but they can be easily swarmed and slowly killed off compared to a Shogun, which will normally make quick work of spread out units: Both ranged and melee units will struggle with him. (Cause it is on the flank.) Fencers and Samurai are also more ideally suited for the front line because of their cheaper price. The Shogun's low hp pool also makes it so. Why put such a valuable and frail unit on the front line?

I should also point out that generally when it comes to the more expensive units of TABS; Shogun, Sensei, Artemis, Giants, Ullr, Black Beard, Pirate Queen, and more. They often suffer from being overhyped because of their prices. I want to blame people certain Youtubers for this because they're always saying "This is the new best unit" or "This unit is completely broken" in situations when they show the unit doing well but in reality. A couple of Hay Balers and Archers make quick work of Artemis, Sarissa/Fencers shred the Shogun, a single Archer beats the Sensei, and every single one of these mentioned units can be easily swarmed at their price range and cheaper. All the big favorite units are thinly gold plated with a zinc inside. Seriously, name me one unit above 1,000 that can't be swarmed.

Firstly, 1 reaper can easily take out 200,000++ budge worth of vampires and raptors.

Secondly, 1 pirate queen can also take out 200,000+ budget worth of vampires and raptors.

Black beard jumps farther than shogun's dash, black beard does more damage both dps and aoe. more hp more speed more damage. its a shame cus shogun has always been my favorite unit by farr but the cost and lack of consistency and special function is jusst unusable in most matches where 2 players try to outplay each other :|

Well, yeah, you just pitted two amazing crowd control units, against crowds of units. xD

Also, don't you mean 2,000? 200,000 would break most computers

[Asclepius]

Originally posted by Lordy:

Originally posted by Caduceus:

You know, instead of saying:



I should have said that units of different fighting/defensive styles should not be compared quickly based on small test. For example, a unit with punches should not be compared to a unit with a sword. The same for every other weapon and armor in the game. This is basically a TL:DR of Viper's post above. :P

i understand that mechanically all units are different, but their functionality and achievements are similar. kill the enemy, or kill ranged, protect back line so they can kill, kill tanks, kill all gobins, etc. this normally wouldnt be a problem, if i wasnt trying to play this competitively, but to win, i need good units, but more than that, creativity. i need units that can achieve the same thing, just in different and more efficient ways. this game is amazing at that, but im just sad that my favorite unit is so useless :(

You're looking too simplistically at the mechanics of the game. All units are good at fighting, but they are all suited toward different tasks. Any two units that are similar are often differently priced; Squire, Samurai, Clubber, Fencer, etc.

Edit: Er, I should have read again. I am slow cause I am tired tonight. xD

There really are no 'good units'. Just some are more ideal for certain situations. Yes, the reaper is amazing crowd control, but as pointed out. He sucks against range. It all depends on what you are fighting.