TECH: How do Collies have Ballistas already but Wardens do not have Brigands?

[Grace]

I have to say, something frees incredibly "off" about the current tech advancement system.

Specifically, the Colonials have heavy tanks already, but the Wardens only have light tanks with medium tank protos.

Under the old system, where one side was ahead in tech there used to be a bonus applied to the other sides' tech advancement to help level the game up. But it seems that has gone, so the side with more players simply gets higher tech faster because they have more players, with the inevitably consequence that people want to join the side that is winning, who then have more players, and ... you get 24/14, with Colonials winning from day 2 of the war and never looking back.

Put another way, Colonials feel like a Premium player in War Thunder, against a free to play account. And the gameplay? Spamming luniaires or hydras utterly lacks skill, style, or fun. If your entire gameplay is PvE, when a T3 rifle garrison isn't enough to stop your hydra mob so you can always just run straight at the bunker and deploy, somehow the game is ... thin. Because it is.

We need the tech to be more even, because this war is a joke and the Warden team is going to do what many have done, and simply go Green. And very quickly, there will be hour long ques and no meaningful gameplay. Its easy to win a war when you have no-one to fight against, but the entire point of this game is not actually winnings, its to have glorious all-arms battles. That is what this game is advertised as having, yet we have a war where the Warden Navy could not get out of their harbour from day 2 on the East Coast, so goodbye Naval Update content for this war. And the new Polish regiment getting smashed at 3am every night by hydra rushes and ballista rushes with venoms killing their light tanks ... sorry, did you WANT this game to survive devs?

And no, EAT and Collins 68 are not enough. They are junk, so easily killed by tremolas. The Warden Tech is just, well, bad. And it is literally days behind the Colonial tech because of the population imbalance.

Sorry to say it devs, but you need to go back to the old tech system, it made for better wars. And stop making so many devastating colonial weapons so early in the war, they literally have a winning advantage from the beginning and usually only lose because they got bored and stopped M-supping their backline hexes.

[Popy / Ivain]

Dude go colonial next war and you'll start to complain about wardens being advantaged.

[Grace]

Originally posted by Popy / Ivain:

Dude go colonial next war and you'll start to complain about wardens being advantaged.

I started this war as Colonial, took one look at the ques, and went Blue.

Colonials only ever lose because they make shiny pretty things, rather than just stick with luniaire, flame to prevent repairs, hydras and ballista rushes with an LTD and a spatha or two to engage warden armour trying to stop the ballistas.

Honestly Colonials should never (ever) make 150mm arty, RSC, battleships or storm cannon - just more ballistas, luniaire, tremolas, hydras and wrenches. Colonial battleships in particular tend to live less than 15 minutes so yeah, Collies get angry at Warden subs, but that is literally a skill issue (no offence, the Wardens are just really good at subs even if we did go under crush depth too often in the initial release). But the war can literally be won with tremolas, flames, and ballistas because the victory points are all on land, not water. We know that because it has been done before. A well used destroyer is amazing, but honestly in this war for example, it is simply wasted effort because "see above list" is sweeping the map.

The addition of fire to indirect cheap (spammable) has seen many dry T3 concrete bunkers die, the very same ones that once were dropped by Destroyers. Sorry to break it to you, but Green Navy is out of a job with the new meta, and the naval game is pretty much irrelevant unless Green decides to stop being so cheesy and let the wardens get at least medium tanks to have a proper battle and a fighting chance. There are no Warden battleships to sink, that tech is not unlocked yet: and there probably won't be any either.

But the 3am asset damage makes it clear that is not an option, so instead we need to look at the mechanics: this is bad game design, and the imbalance between teams worse than it used to be when we had many more steps in the tech progression and choices between items.

The devs need to address that.

[VelxraTV]

Each phase of the war has tech advantages and disadvantages. Once each side maxes out it really doesnt matter anymore.

[Popy / Ivain]

Ocdt syndrome in full tilt. Proper defenses won't fall against tremolas

[Grace]

Originally posted by Popy / Ivain:

Ocdt syndrome in full tilt. Proper defenses won't fall against tremolas

This is objective a lie. They do - dry T3 meta, just add fire and spam more. They fell in Clanshead, and the T3 dry BBs to hydra blobs. And another dry T3 with good bunkers to Ballista rushes. That took 2 goes, but it still worked.

Seriously, stop saying "it does not happen" to justify bad game design. These weapons were clearly never imagined to be in 10-15 player tremola blobs. But that is what the current game has, and the same for Hydras. It could be the same for aligators too, but there are simply not enough warden players to actually alligator rush. And yes, the devs did long ago nerf Aligators because the tactic was too well, lame. And now its back.

Stop wishing away the fact that the gameplay now is well, thin. We used to have epic battles, breaching a bunker then desperately defending. Now its just spam A, B, C, or D, done. The game and its gameplay just isn't as good as it used to be.

And that naval gameplay? Not happening this war, not unless the Collies go home for a week to let the Wardens actually rebuild some cities and farm some rares for some ships. Hope you didn't want to have naval gameplay, you went zergling. Sorry.

[Grace]

Originally posted by Velxra:

Each phase of the war has tech advantages and disadvantages. Once each side maxes out it really doesnt matter anymore.

Except ... Green has an immediate advantage with machine gun trucks, then tankettes, and so on - they never *didn't* have an advantage.

And in a resource poor war with fewer refineries, that early advantage is crippling - we are 14 days in, the Collies have taken Foxcatcher refinery on day 2, and Kings refinery and MPF on day 14 - both BEFORE the Wardens teched a medium tank, and while Collies had ballistas and LTDs.

Its seriously like Warden team is WW1 and colleis are Modern, particularly with the modern French style 68mm and modern rockets and personal grenade launchers. Its as unbalanced as that sounds.

[HKO2006 (no mic)]

A selected response to some of Grace's points

Specifically, the Colonials have heavy tanks already, but the Wardens only have light tanks with medium tank protos.

I believe you are referring to ballista as "heavy tank" but you are mistaken, ballista has always been teched at the same tier as cheftain and occasionally a tier earlier, I believe it's to compensate for warden's 250mm push gun coming out at T5(usually) which is 4 days ahead of ballista compared to ballista being only 1 tier earlier than cheftain.

For reference, this war's LT at T8, ballista at T9 and falchion at T10 https://imgur.com/a/i3miuij

EAT and Collins 68 are not enough. They are junk, so easily killed by tremolas.

It takes 20 to 22 Tremola Grenade GPb-1 to kill a 68mm Anti-Tank Cannon (EAT) (Emplaced)
It takes 15 to 16 RPG to kill a DAE 1o-3 “Polybolos” (Emplaced)

Cutler RPG 32m vs lunaire tremola 27m, carry 7 RPG with uniform vs 6 tremola with uniform. If anything, it's easier to kill Polybolos with RPG than EAT with tremola. Also outlaw can free pve Polybolos with superior range and back off before ARCRPG hit the outlaw which is ironic for a anti tank emplacement but no colonial 40m tank can free pve warden EAT.

Seriously, stop saying "it does not happen" to justify bad game design. These weapons were clearly never imagined to be in 10-15 player tremola blobs.

I agree cutler/lunaire are too strong, there is a video of 50+ people cutler rush https://www.reddit.com/r/foxholegame/comments/1h2pssu/i_guess_we_go_bowling/
The meta piece would be dead had OP didnt run into them, and I dont like this pve focus meta.

Except ... Green has an immediate advantage with machine gun trucks, then tankettes, and so on - they never *didn't* have an advantage.

T5 warden push 40mm and push 250mm with no colonial counterpart, T5 warden 120mm arty usually teching eariler than colonial 120mm arty (infantry tech faster than vehicle tech), T5 warden GB with crew protection can kite colonial GB, T7 45m 68mm ATHT bully 35m 30mm tankette.

both BEFORE the Wardens teched a medium tank, and while Collies had ballistas and LTDs.

Again, ballistas a tier eariler than cheftain is to compensate for warden's 250mm push gun coming out at T5, and LTDs at T8 is similar to T7 45m 68mm ATHT bully HTs and 35m 30mm tankette but with a trade off of being open top.

[Nipply]

Where's this energy when wardens on Charlie server do a bunch of shady stuff?

I swear wardens win so much the second they start losing they all start complaining a whole bunch. Colonials fight, lose, and keep fighting. Thing is, wardens almost always have a pop advantage. more euros too, so 3am raids arent uncommon when everyone else is asleep.

[Popy / Ivain]

Well, hsitory says that colonials stop playing as soon as they can't make easy gain. JUst look at war 117

[Nipply]

Originally posted by Popy / Ivain:

Well, hsitory says that colonials stop playing as soon as they can't make easy gain. JUst look at war 117

Wardens do what they always do. Rush navy because they have nice, safe straight rivers to the sea. They take the ocean hexes and keep partisaning inside logi hexes, attack seaports to eliminate responses. Same reason why invasions halt into warden territories. You guys have easy mountain ranges to protect much of the land.

[Popy / Ivain]

Whatever, war history shows that colonial give up when they can't push easyly, which contradict your previous point.

[Nipply]

Originally posted by Popy / Ivain:

Whatever, war history shows that colonial give up when they can't push easyly, which contradict your previous point.

It doesn't and I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just providing further context as far as what constitutes "easy"

You're also ignoring all the advantages wardens have, which I outlined.

[TopZoz]

Originally posted by Nipply:

Wardens do what they always do. Rush navy because they have nice, safe straight rivers to the sea. They take the ocean hexes and keep partisaning inside logi hexes, attack seaports to eliminate responses. Same reason why invasions halt into warden territories. You guys have easy mountain ranges to protect much of the land.

Stlican Shelf and The Moors would like to have a word with you. You forget that the Bulwark exists, which may as well be the biggest ♥♥♥♥ you to partisans because it makes the entire Colonial backline inaccessible from land.

[Nipply]

Originally posted by TopZoz:

Originally posted by Nipply:

Wardens do what they always do. Rush navy because they have nice, safe straight rivers to the sea. They take the ocean hexes and keep partisaning inside logi hexes, attack seaports to eliminate responses. Same reason why invasions halt into warden territories. You guys have easy mountain ranges to protect much of the land.

Stlican Shelf and The Moors would like to have a word with you. You forget that the Bulwark exists, which may as well be the biggest ♥♥♥♥ you to partisans because it makes the entire Colonial backline inaccessible from land.

I would agree with you, except that A) The bulwark is only 1 hex away from the core Collie logi areas. And even affects us, bisecting a few important logi towns.

B) Warden mountains start as far down as Deadlands and continue across the entirety of the hexes East/West. Only really opening up in Weathered expanse and S**t-can shelf.

C) You can build easily on either side of the bulwark because it's flat terrain. You cannot do the same with the super thick mountains. Hell, some of those mountains you can climb on from the warden side and shoot down. We cant get on the Bulwark at all.

I think the devs realize this, that's why they had to throw collies a bone by adding in the Bulwark, but it doesn't matter much because if the wardens are at the Bulwark, you've probably already lost lol.

[TopZoz]

Originally posted by Nipply:

Originally posted by TopZoz:

Stlican Shelf and The Moors would like to have a word with you. You forget that the Bulwark exists, which may as well be the biggest ♥♥♥♥ you to partisans because it makes the entire Colonial backline inaccessible from land.

I would agree with you, except that A) The bulwark is only 1 hex away from the core Collie logi areas. And even affects us, bisecting a few important logi towns.

B) Warden mountains start as far down as Deadlands and continue across the entirety of the hexes East/West. Only really opening up in Weathered expanse and S**t-can shelf.

C) You can build easily on either side of the bulwark because it's flat terrain. You cannot do the same with the super thick mountains. Hell, some of those mountains you can climb on from the warden side and shoot down. We cant get on the Bulwark at all.

I think the devs realize this, that's why they had to throw collies a bone by adding in the Bulwark, but it doesn't matter much because if the wardens are at the Bulwark, you've probably already lost lol.

Chek the map recently? Umbral Wildwood and Drowned Vale are not 1 hex away from the backline, and Shackled Chasm and Allods Bight are the most mountainous hexes after CPass. Only reason Collies lose when they get pushed back to the bulwark is because Colonials are a faction of defeatists that give up once their early war advantage is gone if they don't make easy gains.