Infantry update woes

[Party San]

Why devs, why are you catering to players that have no to little skill in infantry combat?
The players that would not stick around to gain the skill needed for infantry (before this infantry netf patch), are the type of players to play a game because it is the current trend, because it is on top charts, because a big streamer plays it.
These players will LEAVE the game, once another game becomes the current trend, or they will leave because they are the type player that gets bored of the game quite quickly; and rightfully so! Since they would not stick to improve their infantry combat (for example) they have no reason to keep wanting to play infantry after a certain hour limit is hit.

You have managed to ruin rifle combat infantry, nerf it by a long shot. This is actually a
crouch with smg simulator - or prone simulator.

Do you know how tedious and unenjoyable it is to run after a partisan on snow with a rifle, then when he stops, you have to wait to regain stamina in order to be able to fight him?

I havent gone once on a partisan mission after nerf, because I know I would not be able to hit and run, outrun enemy QRF and try to survive as long as possible while trying to sabotage more.

At night now because of the changes, you cannot line up 3 enemy infantry, to fight them one by one, because you will be visible after you shoot, and you will be third parties no matter the strategy you try to use!

Do you know, that in a game where there is a problem with player pop ballance, you made it even harder for the lower popped side to fight with infantry?

I cannot run away from 3 dudes with smgs, because im really slow, and when i notice that i cant outrun them, it is too late for me to stop because i have drained half of my stamina; and I am unable to fight due to slow shouldering, while they just crouch and shoot fiddler no problem. So I cant run away nor fight!
Back in the day I could pick 1 off, then run and rotate to try get another one, or try to shadow dance 2 or 3.
Now its impossible because of the stamina drain and much slower movement.

You say its not about heroes, have you heard (as silly as it sounds) of spec ops, specially trained units?

Why is arm stamina and leg stamina not two different things?

Do you know I cannot run into a trench now, because if I do I have to hide to gain staming, and cannot shoot? I have to choose - either run and try to dodge and make it to a trench and not be able to shot, or walk with shooting stamina but get obliterated on the way.

The people that like these changes the most are the people that never mained infantry combat! And they will never main it, not even after this patch.
These are logi mains and people that do combat once in a blue moon.

Ive seen 3 streamers happy becase of this change. One is a logi main, NEVER does inf combat. Another streamer is one that streams Foxhole once in a blue moon, not like some infantry people that put in hours and played daily to get better. Yet another streamer mains base building and arti spotting and has weak infantry combat.
These are the people that are happy about this change, ones that do not play infantry, or play rarely!

Why do SMGs have similar range as rifles with similar accuracy as said rifles? Since you want this game to be more realistic (shouldering), why did you leave unrealistic behavious of all SMG's?

Not everything that is realistic should make it into a game, because that will make the game tedious as it is happening here. However, if you are after the realism you are at least be constant across the board with other weapons too.

All you people that like this recent update including logi main, you should actually switch and do infantry as main role. I mean since you like it so much why not? 100% you like it more than people that used to ONLY play infantry before the patch.

Im going back to tank maining - scrooping for MPF tank production and tank driving, I hope to see all you infantry update enthusiasts actually taking the infantry roles needed and filling gaps after infantry main vets that just cant be bothered doing infantry no more after what it has become.

There were many dimensions to this game (partisan survival, tank thief with some of enemy crew still in tank, non stop qrf and patrolling long logi routes...) that had been nerfed or gone. Foxhole was one a brilliant game with many little nice touches that added to the overall flavour. Such a shame.

I just had to post all this, tried holding it in for many days and playing infantry and hoping to find how it once was.

Ps. Mines always helped Colonials when we had been underpoped to hold. Now mines are no longer able to be produced in a factory, and cannot be carried or placed in bundles, making them a lot harder to place, requiring a lot of work and manpower - something an underpopulated faction does not have.

[Quad Shot]

tldr, salty vet ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about having to work with other players and think tactically.

[Cartoffel]

I hate the mine nerf as well, don't care to much about stamina to be honest.
Infantry mines are a pain to place and prepped fields are to easy to spot and to destroy.

[Party San]

Originally posted by Quad Shot:

tldr, salty vet ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about having to work with other players and think tactically.

Hey, thanks for bumping the thread o7

Dont think devs will revert changes which is fine, needed this thread to help me move on from infantry maining to something else.

Foxhole still a great game however IMO did lose a lot bc of inf nerf. Oh well.

Ps. I know Wardens very scared to get Fiddler nerf lol, that thing is crazy broooooken!

[Party San]

Originally posted by Cartoffel:

I hate the mine nerf as well, don't care to much about stamina to be honest.
Infantry mines are a pain to place and prepped fields are to easy to spot and to destroy.

The new minefield blueprint holding 10 mines is a good addition that cant be spotted from far, thats a decent mechanic and has a generous HP pool.
However removing mine production from factories made low pop side defending against waves of tanks much much harder due to lack of easy availability and production.

[Cartoffel]

Tanks are able to destroy those minefields, which makes them nearly pointless.

[Party San]

Originally posted by Cartoffel:

Tanks are able to destroy those minefields, which makes them nearly pointless.

Ah, good point actually do you remember how many 40mm shells to take down a full 10 mine minefield?

[ChiliOil]

https://foxhole.wiki.gg/wiki/Structure_Health#Protective_Structures-0
https://foxhole.wiki.gg/wiki/Vehicle_Health

everyone who plays this game should have this wiki bookmarked and have the vic and structure health pages bookmarked. It makes life easier.
While i'm at it, here's the logi calculator too because someone needs to see it.
https://foxholelogi.com/

[Thaiden]

Devs are content with ruining their own game

[Qrow]

Weapon shouldering is good, just needs to be toned down a bit.

rifles do not have the same range as SMGs lmao

you can run into a trench and shoot, manage stamina better

a lot of the stuff here is fake news

I do main infantry I'm our top guy

[Party San]

Originally posted by Qrow:

Weapon shouldering is good, just needs to be toned down a bit.

rifles do not have the same range as SMGs lmao

you can run into a trench and shoot, manage stamina better

a lot of the stuff here is fake news

I do main infantry I'm our top guy

Nonsense. Running into a trench is much harder, depending on how far the trench is, or how long of a flank you are doing. You cant run in then keep fragging people and swerving, Shadow dancing a trench is gone after running into it unless you get your stamina back.

You cannot charge a trench with 2 people shooting at you, you cannot shadow dance and shoot them, shouldering will prevent you from doing that.
Before nerf would be achievable to run at dudes in trench shooting at you, juke their shots, and down 1 before jumping the trench, to finish the other one inside.
Saying manage stamina better is BS, many things are not achievable now because of the infantry nerf and stamina changes.

The game play is much much slower, was very snappy and responsive not anymore.

Fiddler has the range of an argenti, or almost its range. The fact that you can tag a person even for 1 HP at that range using fiddler is crazy.
Fiddlers range should be 1/3 less than what it is now, and there should be bigger accuracy drop of the further you shoot with an smg.

Definitely not fake news mr top guy lol, its all true what I have written based on my playthrough.

Ps. Did you even shadowdance before this latest infantry update? If no, thats the reason you think its fake news, because you just dont understand how the changes impacted infantry gameplay.

[Texticlilles]

I think you are missing the point of the update. This is meant to be a simulation of war (granted it is still a game) and you don’t see soldiers spinning in real life to dodge shots, or standing to take shots. It’s meant to force you to work with other people using other weapons. I.e. if you want to go smoke some dudes in a trench, get some one with a machine gun to lay down fire and go up and waste them. Instead of complaining you should figure the intended mechanics Instead of complaining. If you don’t like it uninstall.

[Party San]

Originally posted by Ger_Mex:

I think you are missing the point of the update. This is meant to be a simulation of war (granted it is still a game) and you don’t see soldiers spinning in real life to dodge shots, or standing to take shots. It’s meant to force you to work with other people using other weapons. I.e. if you want to go smoke some dudes in a trench, get some one with a machine gun to lay down fire and go up and waste them. Instead of complaining you should figure the intended mechanics Instead of complaining. If you don’t like it uninstall.

Making a game too realistic will make it tedious. In this game you can block a tank with a bicycle by parking a bicycle behind it (Im fine with this, not realistic but a valid strat). If going for realism for rifles, make smgs also realistic not long range accurate laser guns.

For 95% of infantry playtime each war I have had used Argenti (sometimes other rifles I found Blakerow and Loughcaster, sometimes Catena but mosly Argenti), 4% Pistol and 1% Mg or Smg that I found when I ran out of ammo (or course this 95% 4% 1% is an estimate but it should be somewhat close to reality).
Most player damage I had was ~400k raw Argenti damage – no armoured cars, no artillery, no tank damage, no smgs such as Fiddler or Lionclaw, no Dusks no Cataras (even before multiple nerfs), bayonet kills were mixed up in there somwhere also. I really enjoyed rifle gameplay pre-patch and mostly that would keep me returning to Foxhole time and time again.
Surely there are and were people that did more damage than me using only rifles, but I consider myself only mid and definitely not the best, but I did get stuff done when needed.

Ill give you some (pre infantry patch) examples:

I ran up to a colonial jeep (Oddysey) that was disabled and killed 3 wardens that were there. Ran up as fast as I could using sprint, kiled first one quickly due to surprise, second one just as he started shooting me cause he noticed whats going one, and had a fight with the last one running around the jeep.
The owner of the jeep was still inside and he was happy we were able to save and fix his jeep, and he could go on his merry way.
Teamplay right? Helping your team using the skills you have?
With the current infantry nerf I would not be able to do so, jeep would be dead, as I would have to hide and wait to regain stamina the first time I ran up to the wardens, then regain stamina after I managed to down the second warden to be able to chase the third warden around the jeep to down him.
Good luck getting more than 1 person to QRF such situations, especially if it is something you just seen on intel and just went for it.

Second example:
Running into trench from flank and killing 7-8 Wardens with pre-nerf bayonet, so that your team can move up, because they have been held down and not moved an inch from a different trench, sitting there for ages with no clue what to do.
Another example of playing for the team, using your skills and awareness to help your team push forward.
With current mechanics, this is just not possible, would take ages to sprint around for flank, then sprint into trench, then wait for stam regain, even tough current bayonet is just not worth using.

I have played many wars where Colonials were underpopulated, and before stamina nerf it was possible for vet Colies to solo qrf 2-3 (or sometimes more) Wardens disrupting logi lines. Now has become much much harder especially at night time and in snowy areas.

As for shadowdancing (or spinning as you call it) it could also be used in team play, get one or two more buddies that also shadowdance and fight wardens in open field – there you go, teamplay.

There needs to be a ballance between fun, realism and problems such as population imballance and in game lag. The slow down pre inf patch after connecting 1 rifle shot, helped a lot in times where there was a lot of lag. Now the latest stagger update imo doesnt help that much.

There are FAR more important areas in Foxhole where people arent using teamplay:
1). Same player using multibox to crew 1 tank with gunner and driver – theres quite many of these (I myself have never done this). I was initially against this but met many fine folks that do this and just have a need to play solo, it is what it is, not up to me to enforce rules. However myself Ill never do this.
2). Big clans hoarding resources until a hex is invaded and its far too late to save it – only then do they release the stockpiles to public (every rmat I make goes for full tank mpf, out of this I keep 1 crate for myself and release other crates for public use. If I have 3 tanks in private I release all crates to public and do not keep 1, because I dont want to hoard).
3). People using alts to afk/camp component mines with autoclicker, while on their main account they do something different, preventing other users with 1 account only to get components from said mines (I never have done this).
Point 2 and 3 as a combo perphaps most deadliest, afk gathering resources to hoard.

But like I said, I am moving on, just today I hopped into a tank and went to a tank fight instead of qrfing as infantry. So far i mpf-ed and gave away 55 tanks this war (I have rmats cooking for another full Falchion MPF giveaway as I write this).
While I still miss how I was able to assist the Colonial faction with infantry, I guess I just need to transfer this into tank combat, maybe Ill start logging into a war like most Warden vets, as first tanks unlock and skip the first part of early war all together.
So yes I will find other things to do in Foxhole, and additionally I will be one of those tank dudes that will shout to infantry where to push and what to cover on a frontline, yes even in rainy and snowy areas of the map.

I am happy that all you infantry update enjoyers actually enjoy what infantry has become now, and will enjoy it for the hunders of hours to come assisting tanks. More power to you.

[Balfour]

shadow dancing is slop

[Ducklord]

If I can give the point of view of a new player that never experienced the old inf style

Played a lot of inf, for me most of the rifles feel like to be played with cover bonus only
I had a hard time shooting at people when surprise out of cover or when I was moving out of position to another place, the aiming shoulder take time with rifles but that what the pistol is for to save you by being faster
If not, I have to run back in the closest cover to be able to shoot quick

I love rifles, most of the time the gameplay of it for me is to run quick cover to cover to be able to shot quick with the cover bonus and hugging walls, if not then it's pistol time

SMG are great for pushing, be able to keep a kind of precision while moving, emptying mags to clean and not needed cover most of the time for fighting enemy out of cover
Great tool for defending myself while working on building defenses quick againt partisan

Not a big fan of the assaults rifles
Hit hards, not played them so much but sometime feel like the SMG do a better work

I push and flank regulary in fights, I have the habit to switch from primary to secondary regulary in any games has the pistol will always be the tool to compensate the flaws of my Rifle inf gameplay for close range combat and fast move

I find the inf fight okay, it is more about cover, thinking your move and giving information to your friends for moving together to position
Any blind rusher will be dead in a second as one bullet hitting you can be your death so that where grenades and other tools are your friends, want to engage and giving you a window for action ? Throw a frag to move your opponent out of his position, can't engage because of people in building ? Gas grenade is here, plus I love the Warden grenade launcher you can equip on rifles, I always take one has it open so much action in the battlefield for you or your allies

[Party San]

Originally posted by Ducklord Khody:

If I can give the point of view of a new player that never experienced the old inf style

Played a lot of inf, for me most of the rifles feel like to be played with cover bonus only
I had a hard time shooting at people when surprise out of cover or when I was moving out of position to another place, the aiming shoulder take time with rifles but that what the pistol is for to save you by being faster
If not, I have to run back in the closest cover to be able to shoot quick

I love rifles, most of the time the gameplay of it for me is to run quick cover to cover to be able to shot quick with the cover bonus and hugging walls, if not then it's pistol time

SMG are great for pushing, be able to keep a kind of precision while moving, emptying mags to clean and not needed cover most of the time for fighting enemy out of cover
Great tool for defending myself while working on building defenses quick againt partisan

Not a big fan of the assaults rifles
Hit hards, not played them so much but sometime feel like the SMG do a better work

I push and flank regulary in fights, I have the habit to switch from primary to secondary regulary in any games has the pistol will always be the tool to compensate the flaws of my Rifle inf gameplay for close range combat and fast move

I find the inf fight okay, it is more about cover, thinking your move and giving information to your friends for moving together to position
Any blind rusher will be dead in a second as one bullet hitting you can be your death so that where grenades and other tools are your friends, want to engage and giving you a window for action ? Throw a frag to move your opponent out of his position, can't engage because of people in building ? Gas grenade is here, plus I love the Warden grenade launcher you can equip on rifles, I always take one has it open so much action in the battlefield for you or your allies

I mean I appreciate that you are having fun as a new player, Im glad for you, and the fact that you see certain intricacies and compare weapons etc.

However its not that simple in the long run, and the more wars and hours u play and put in, the more it will be obvious.

Like I said before I am a Colonial loyalist, that mained the Argenti rifle, an S tier weapon that Colonials had before this latest infantry patch. Now it is a C+ tier weapon at most, especially considering the bayonet had been also nerfed. I think the Argenti is the weapon that suffered the most with the stamina nerf. The Warden Loughcaster with its range bonus over Argenti fits perfectly into prone shoot/crouch shoot meta what infantry gameplay has become after latest patch, so IMO it isnt affected as much.

In this game its not just about the weapons. The fact that players make weapons, and later tier weapons are more expensive has a big role in this game. Especially when I have played Colonials where we had been underpopulated for many many wars.

This is not an FPS shooter game where you have certain loadouts avaiable to choose from from the get go. With player shortage, there are also logi shortages. Many times the side that has lower population lacks AT or even basic rifles such as the Argenti, not to mention end game equipment like the Dusk which now is an rmat weapon.
Dont get me started on gas shortages after changes to crate size.
Maybe I have PTSD from playing too many wars with Colies having much less population and having problems getting basic logi in. Or maybe thats the impression I remember the most from all wars Ive played (even as I write this there are shortages in public tanks, even Falchions for new players to try tanking).

So while yes you describe all this quite innocently with strategies, there are times of great shortages where there is lack of equipment, which will dictate the gameplay, and a disparity between rifles and other weapons as is now might prove to be much more detrimental than before.

Before stamina changes and pistol changes, Argenti and pistol weapons were decent to try and defend without having advanced weapons even against late game weapons! Now they are more so just mid.

As for combat you are describing, sure on a frontline grind throw a nade here, do a push there, all good why not.

But there are different areas of infantry gameplay, frontline grinder is only on of them.
There is Partisan work in backlines as well as QRFing logi lines.
QRF Combat there requires to be swift, not only you dont have time to grab much equipment for QRF because you have to go swiftly settle the problem, but more probably the terrain you will fight on will be open land, near road. Before the patch Argenti with 1 clip loaded and 1 additional was the meta, compensating small amount of ammo for decent speed especially while sprinting.
Additionally you do not want to take heavy weapons which partisans can take from you and use against other incoming logi trucks if you do get killed say on your first attempt, at least thats how I QRF.
Usually Argenti worked like a charm for such matters and it was a lot of fun for myself.
For partisan work you only have a limited amount of slots, Argenti with bayonet could have saved you a lot of ammo when you would 1 shot stagger a Warden deep in enemy lines, and finish him off with a bayo rush (before the infantry nerf).

In this game as you know its a constant fight die respawn deal. The QRF and partisan gameplay however, is quite different. It can be viewed more as a sorf of survival, with being a partisan would be having one life only (if it would involve driving motorboat far up into enemy backline hexes with no additional spawns behind enemy lines). It would be a challened to do damage, and still survive, run away from QRF, sit low for couple of minutes, try and switch hexes etc. It was a great part of Foxhole, was fun, fast, dangerous and rewarding.
The stamina changes made this actually a chore, no fun at all. Once you are discovered you I think chances to escape are slim and most likely will not be able to fight back when chased. I have no interest in this part of the game anymore.

The QRF part is also a sort of survival, depending on how far the logi is being cut. You can challenge yourself to try and do it in as little tries as possible, and it is rewarding if you manage to dispose of enemy partisan threat in as little spawns as possible. As the enemy most probably doesnt have a spawn nearby, of course depending on scenario or situation it is a survival situation for them.
Recent stamina changes made chasing after partisans a chore, especially in snow.

As for the gameplay you are describing, I was more into shadowdancing, that also involved fighting other shadowdancers 1v1, many times in an open field.
The meta was like I mentioned to have 1 clip and a rifle, no grenades at all in order to be faster. There would be no time to throw nades anyway during the fight, as even pulling out a grenade might have cost you the fight.
There always was adrenaline rush and a lot of fun, with satisfaction after a victorious fight, especially if the opponent was a good player. After a loss there was motivation to do better next time.
There was fighting couple of players at once using rifles like blakerow, managing to bleed few or down more than one.
There was fighting amongst trees juking and rotating landing shots going back to cover just for a second or two to go back and try to land finishing shots.
All this was possible because stamina did not affect rifle gameplay as heavily as it does now.

I am not a person that crouch walks with steady aim in the dark, thats boring for me.
Not a person that will wait behind a tree in cover for countless seconds.
I used to push people that hid behind trees straight on weaving, or at least sprint flank them. Currently thats impossible. I dont want to have to slowly walk around to try and flank its just too boring and time consuming with a high risk I will be tagged or downed before I arrive at planned destination.

Additionally with the game being speedy before and fast in terms of infantry fights, I mostly didnt pay attention to lag in the long run. I always kept returning for more, hoping that there would be less lag and decent fights which there were at times of course.
Now however since it takes actually more time to walk to a certain spot, lag proves to be a big demotivator in fights.
Since I have to walk not sprint, to be ready to fight anyone I see on my way, when during fights there isnt hit reg, but only fake blood splatter it actually irritates me, because its just a waste of time.
Just today I fought an infantry man and had full stamina mind you, and after landing 1 shot, I landed on that player 4 consecutive shots all of which had blood splatter on my screen, however there was no hit reg, as he wasnt blodied, downed or slowed down. Thats FOUR times in a row my shots connected with him but failed to register!
Like I said, with how slow the game is now, situations like these that are caused by lag just make me not want to play.

I never enjoyed running with smg crouching and shooting, and I still dont, but unfortunately this style of play is heavily rewarded now, more so than before.
Sitting in trenches for long hours was more punishable before, by people that flanked and cleared trench campers allowing rest of your team to push.
Trying to make tactical plays with rifles is much harder, impossible to run away or run and fight back. Impossible to turn around at a decent speed while running away or while enemy is in your face - the lack of stamina and shouldering will make you rotate at a silly speed. Rifles without sprint are much worse than they had been.

Additionaly there are areas where Warden equipment is OP.
Ive overheard 2 people talking, new players - the jist of the conversation was a new Colonial player wanted to go Warden just because Wardens have the Fiddler.
This guns had been broken for as long as I remember. There are too few people talking about this issue, this is actually the meta gun now. Before with sprint it was much more easy to fight a crouched fiddler infantry. A Fiddler can win against a Dusk what I have seen many many times. I really do hope devs give this gun a second look and of course if need be take a look at Lionclaw as well.

Maybe Im wrong about multiple things in this thread and time will tell, but one thing I know. For me Foxhole infantry gameplay has lost the fun factor that kept me returning for more, a mix of arcade and simulation.

In my opinion if player base decreased over time, it wasnt because of infantry gameplay and shadowdancers. It was because of the grind and burnout. It was because Foxhole is not for everyone with its grind mechanics, and that is fine.

EDIT:
Also let me add, that mostly I think bayonet was changed and swords/club added because the devs are either testing stuff for Anvil on live server on Foxhole, or wanted to add a taste of what Anvil might be like, to maybe get players interested in it.