Do Warden tanks suck in line battles?

[Patryk Ocurra]

I don't understand why colonial tanks have more hp, are cheaper to repair, have more range (LTD) or rof (Spatha), comparable armor and really only seem to have a couple negative outliers in max speed and fuel economy. They seem to just straight up win big tank battles since they're also usually more numerous since you only need 2-3 people for colonial tanks vs 3-4 for warden tanks (if you want to use MGs on stuff like Outlaws and it's essential for the 68mm on the Silverhand). Combine the need for more tankers per tank with the HP difference per tank and there's a massive disparity in sheer hitpoints of armor on the battle field. I understand that Logi is the most important part of the game and colonials are probably just out logi-ing us this war. I also understand that an equal number of warden Silverhands, Widows and Lordscars can crank out a tonne of damage if they get close enough, so maybe it's just a skill issue, but I'm not seeing that play out in the big tank battles that are happening in this war. Even the Flood seems weaker since it's only upside vs Lance is that it's turret is less likely to be disabled and it's faster, lance has like 1150 more hp for some reason. Ballista rushes are also devastating but I'm not super familiar with siege warfare so I don't know if the Chieftain is comparable or not (it's more expensive to make so it seems weaker just based on economy/man-hours to produce) Combine that with other stuff like Banes and Stygians punishing the hell out of aggressive warden tanks I really am not sure what to do against a colonial battle line when the shooting actually starts.

[DayWalker]

Outlaw range - 45m

[Iskander]

No, they don't. The SvH and HDT are incredible tanks for line battles. Add one or two outlaws for poking and PvEing and a Warden tankline is Callahan's gift to the world.

Yeah, the Spatha is a bit overtuned at the moment and a long range 68mm would be amazing, but you can't have everything.

If anything, I would say the Warden tanks are more suitable for tank line combat, where Colonials tanks need to come up with different tactics.

And this is coming from a Warden loyalist.

[BillyCosbyX]

In the colonial faction, people (and me) tend to think that the warden tanks are better. The grass is always greener on the other side.

[Nosgoth]

Originally posted by Patryk Ocurra:

I don't understand why colonial tanks have more hp, are cheaper to repair, have more range (LTD) or rof (Spatha), comparable armor and really only seem to have a couple negative outliers in max speed and fuel economy. They seem to just straight up win big tank battles since they're also usually more numerous since you only need 2-3 people for colonial tanks vs 3-4 for warden tanks (if you want to use MGs on stuff like Outlaws and it's essential for the 68mm on the Silverhand). Combine the need for more tankers per tank with the HP difference per tank and there's a massive disparity in sheer hitpoints of armor on the battle field. I understand that Logi is the most important part of the game and colonials are probably just out logi-ing us this war. I also understand that an equal number of warden Silverhands, Widows and Lordscars can crank out a tonne of damage if they get close enough, so maybe it's just a skill issue, but I'm not seeing that play out in the big tank battles that are happening in this war. Even the Flood seems weaker since it's only upside vs Lance is that it's turret is less likely to be disabled and it's faster, lance has like 1150 more hp for some reason. Ballista rushes are also devastating but I'm not super familiar with siege warfare so I don't know if the Chieftain is comparable or not (it's more expensive to make so it seems weaker just based on economy/man-hours to produce) Combine that with other stuff like Banes and Stygians punishing the hell out of aggressive warden tanks I really am not sure what to do against a colonial battle line when the shooting actually starts.

are u kiddin held 5 tank lane with single htd :D

[Vaiseri]

Line battles most times Collies lose.

The HTD has more armour then a BTD...SVH additionally has very high armour and bounces most shots. LTD's are very weak, if they poke, you can easily punish one as they are a Light Tank.

All you need to do is abuse 45m outlaw poking against collie tanks, and use HTD Spam as the damage is VERY HIGH and has a decent range too.

[Horse Gang of Bailie]

What a confusing steam post. The colonial tanks are on average have less damage than their warden counterparts, generally have vastly lower armor and also generally have lower ranges than warden counterparts.

The only stat case that shows a significant health advantage is probably the silverhand versus falchion/spatha case and the BT balance. Warden tanks sometimes do have more health than colonial counterparts. Such as the LTD versus outlaw, The Super tank predator with 12k versus the ares with 9k.

In the current game state and in tank on tank battles, having more armor is better than health in basically every case bar AT that ignores armor.

Never minding the specifics, Even other Wardens who spam tanks all day will tell you that warden tank lines have a big advantage in the average line fight. Its because colonial tanks will lose the frontal fight that it is advised for their tanks to go on the offroad and use good flank angles to output damage and get better penetration chances.

[Patryk Ocurra]

Originally posted by Horse Gigglefish:

What a confusing steam post. The colonial tanks are on average have less damage than their warden counterparts, generally have vastly lower armor and also generally have lower ranges than warden counterparts.

The only stat case that shows a significant health advantage is probably the silverhand versus falchion/spatha case and the BT balance. Warden tanks sometimes do have more health than colonial counterparts. Such as the LTD versus outlaw, The Super tank predator with 12k versus the ares with 9k.

In the current game state and in tank on tank battles, having more armor is better than health in basically every case bar AT that ignores armor.

Never minding the specifics, Even other Wardens who spam tanks all day will tell you that warden tank lines have a big advantage in the average line fight. Its because colonial tanks will lose the frontal fight that it is advised for their tanks to go on the offroad and use good flank angles to output damage and get better penetration chances.

I really don't see the VASTLY lower armor thing. The armor on vehicles isn't generally far off, around 30% average chance to bounce. Exceptions being Widows and Bardiches. This of course becomes less important as armor degrades as well and since you can restore HP without retreating from a battle the EHP of colonial tanks seems waaaay higher during a drawn out fight. Especially since they're also cheaper to repair.

Idk where you're getting the lower range thing from either, most tanks are 40 metres with, again, some exceptions. Outlaw, LTD, Silverhand 68mm, BT 75mm, etc....

As for damage I guess the Widow and the Lordscar have huge damage so fair enough.

Idk, It doesn't feel like Warden tanks are performing as well as everyone thinks they should so maybe it's a skill issue. Combine that with, what I understand is stereotypically considered, an inferior infantry kit it just feels bad to play Wardens.

[Iskander]

Are you a new player? Because this war, Wardens are underpopped and we are not performing well in the war, which might contribute to your opinion that our tanks are worse than Colonial tanks in a line battle. Also: the recent Spatha buff was quite vast and the tank Meta hasn't settled yet, in regards to their new stats, so there is that as well.

But overall: Warden tanks are quite good, especially in a tank line. Few tanks can compete with a line of SvHs and HTDs.

[Horse Gang of Bailie]

Originally posted by Patryk Ocurra:

Originally posted by Horse Gigglefish:

What a confusing steam post. The colonial tanks are on average have less damage than their warden counterparts, generally have vastly lower armor and also generally have lower ranges than warden counterparts.

The only stat case that shows a significant health advantage is probably the silverhand versus falchion/spatha case and the BT balance. Warden tanks sometimes do have more health than colonial counterparts. Such as the LTD versus outlaw, The Super tank predator with 12k versus the ares with 9k.

In the current game state and in tank on tank battles, having more armor is better than health in basically every case bar AT that ignores armor.

Never minding the specifics, Even other Wardens who spam tanks all day will tell you that warden tank lines have a big advantage in the average line fight. Its because colonial tanks will lose the frontal fight that it is advised for their tanks to go on the offroad and use good flank angles to output damage and get better penetration chances.

I really don't see the VASTLY lower armor thing. The armor on vehicles isn't generally far off, around 30% average chance to bounce. Exceptions being Widows and Bardiches. This of course becomes less important as armor degrades as well and since you can restore HP without retreating from a battle the EHP of colonial tanks seems waaaay higher during a drawn out fight. Especially since they're also cheaper to repair.

Idk where you're getting the lower range thing from either, most tanks are 40 metres with, again, some exceptions. Outlaw, LTD, Silverhand 68mm, BT 75mm, etc....

As for damage I guess the Widow and the Lordscar have huge damage so fair enough.

Idk, It doesn't feel like Warden tanks are performing as well as everyone thinks they should so maybe it's a skill issue. Combine that with, what I understand is stereotypically considered, an inferior infantry kit it just feels bad to play Wardens.

The closer you get to zero the bigger the deal bounce chances become small percentages changes are actually very significant in bounce chances for all shell types

For example, a minimum pen of 30%, the penetration chance of a warden light tank,68 45%, when shot at by 94.5 becomes 60%
Then you take the Hasta colonial tank destroyer minimum pen 20%, it becomes 30 % when shot by 68% and then 40% when shot by 94, then do the HTD with 17%, 68 25%, 94 34%.

Armor in this game severely nerfs AT effectiveness, The penetration bonus for AT specialist weapons is not enough. What this leads to is a Suicide sticky/flask zergs that are favored purely because they ignore armor and inflict guaranteed subsystem disablement.

Armor degradation is also not necessarily a warden weakness either however. Degradation is so dangerous because it makes everything penetrate more which is obvious but the most serious threat when that is the case is that your subsystems will be disabled more often from fights or infantry AT. In the end, what gets tanks killed is not necessarily its health being low from the get go but instead being crippled, caught by surprised or just getting straight up unlucky. Health may save you by prolonging how long it takes to kill you which may get enough time for inf or another tank to save you but in most cases the health difference between tanks is not that vast enough to change that result. In most cases its a 1 shell extra to disable or kill.

Sure you would have more of a case in the health department if you looked at the extremes such as the Flood versus the lance or the ares with 9k and the predator with 12k
These health values are certainly life saving.

"Idk where you're getting the lower range thing from either, most tanks are 40 metres with, again, some exceptions. Outlaw, LTD, Silverhand 68mm, BT 75mm, etc...."

Colonial vehicles have less range on average. The average colonial tank line will be out ranged by wardens. This is the case most of the time.

Warden vehicles and colonial vehicles have certain gimmick features with 1 notable one being the barrel range. All guns in this game have their range starting from the exact end of the barrel with the exception of the HV field guns which are still broken since they swapped. What this means is that vehicles like the HTD with extremely long protruding Barrels have their range extended by some decent margins. The BTD has this too however.

"It doesn't feel like Warden tanks are performing as well as everyone thinks they should so maybe it's a skill issue. Combine that with, what I understand is stereotypically considered, an inferior infantry kit it just feels bad to play Wardens."

Its no doubt warden tanks are the best. And its true that colonials win the early game. I'm not warden so i couldnt point out flaws in the warden playstyle this war. One thing i did notice were the weak operation attempts by every other warden group besides the Lambda coalition. See Kings Cage. Wardens have been on the defensive sitting in concrete bunkers not really putting in enough effort in actual ground taking it seems like to me. This is not to say there weren't any attempts at all, Just that Wardens felt weak this late war like they didn't even care.

[wussa]

Colonial tanks were once technically inferior to Wardens in terms of HP and DPS. That's why they are cheaper and you get more out of the factory than with the Wardens. That was just the deal. But there was a lot of crying and then they were adapted to the Wardens. So they now have better HP and DPS in some cases, but they still cost nothing compared to Warden tanks.

[Technoci]

As a Warden our tanks are better than the colonial for sure. Even the new output update rescources I tried to abuse to spam STD + HTD Flame.
The Problem is the Numbers. 2 Reasons.

1. The population timezones is ALWAYS an issue.
if you play both factions you will notice between in Morning----Afternoon----Evening----Night. Play as warden you work too hard to keep up till the time is right.
Play as Colonial you almost do nothing. Like they almost don't need you.
Example. 1 HTD vs 1 Spartha. No problem for the HTD. But 1 HTD vs 2-3 Spartha every time, the 3e -4e Spartha don't need to assist and start the clean up jobs like removing buildings piece by piece. The only best advantage the warden have is the weekend. Aka Warden weekend. Even big-small clans from the Colonial side that joined The Warden once or two, they also know the differences.

2. The requirement crews need on tanks.
Let's name 3 commen use tanks on Both sides.
( NOT THE STRENGHT & DON'T TRUST WIKI 100% )

Warden:-----Outlaw----Silverhand-----Widow.
Crews:----------3-----------3/4-----------2

Colonial:----Spartha----Ballista-----Bard.
Crews ---------2-----------2---------2-3

Now... Combine this Explanation with the numbers of losses from Claimed Facility bases.
( Coalfields, Oil rigs & Component fields ).

BUT IS WARDEN SKILL ISSUE.. My Brother, as warden myself. YOU ARE TOTALLY RIGHT!

The differences between Front claimed facilities & Backline claimed facilities.
( Yes those facilities from 2 hexes away to the front at the beginning of THIS war, I called Front facilities. Go **** yourself. )

Lack of tool communications when what they needed and what they don't.
Lack of vetted tanks ( some of them are understandable like STD vet cost 84 STEEL )
Stricted resources pick up ( some of them are understandable. STEEL is not cheap )

C-pass Drama.. hehehe I know why..

and MOST FAMOUS ONE.. THE ONE WE ALL AGREED.. EVEN ON BOTH FACTION SIDES........IS THAT ***** PIECE OF ******HEX

WEATHERED EXPANSE ************* SKILL ISSUE************