Possible solutions for L.O.G.I. strike (discussion)

[Friendly_Axe]

Hello fellow players and devs of Foxhole!

I'm palying a bit as a backline logi player in 404th (less than 500 hours) and was qiute discoureged with the news of L.O.G.I. strike. Imho in their open letter they vioced some difficulties they encountered, but did not provide any suggestions for overcoming those difficultites. As well as tonns of signpost from L.O.G.I on logi-hubs and recource fields even further discourage players on doing logi, leading to running low on supplies.

At this time of Foxhole development it's similar to russian proverb "If you like to ride sleigh - you have to like to pull sleigh uphill", meaning that without dedicated logi-players, or players, who do the full "scrap-refine-craft-stockpile-deliver-fight" chain frontline would be starved of assets, or narrowed down to very little tactical options, depending on what logi delivered them.

I don't support L.O.G.I. strike, but i can understand the cumulative frustrations about current state of ingame logistics in L.O.G.I. community.

As for the L.O.G.I. open letter, i would like to write some if mine thoughts down in "T-C-S : thesis - comment - suggestion" form.

DISCLAIMER - that only an opinion, also english is not mine native language.

T1. Pull times from Public Stockpiles/Refineries are too long.
C1. Times are ok-ish cause it's basically free stuff, you're trading the time you would spend on "scrap-refine-craft" on "vacuuming" form public.
S1. NEW truck/utility vehicle - Forklift.
250 Bmats profuction cost, build conditions - like CV.
2nd-3rd tier tech,
9-10 standard cargo slots,
1 driver seat,
good turning speed,
bad overall speed (like CV),
3 uniqe specs
1st one is pulling times is reduced in half (from reservered almost instant, 2x faster from public),
2nd - can access from driver position any container and any open or squadlocked vehicle as if you were on foot for fast loading/unloading (with forklift inventory and inventory of targeted crate/vehicle on same screen),
3rd - can unpack crated stuff if has enoigh free cargo slots, unpaking not instant, takes 3 sec per crate.

T2. Acquiring early game components is overly difficult, competitive and toxic.
C2. Petrol, petrol everywhere. As well as a tonn of wreckage. At start competition is high, but people find their ways to farm components on mines with petrol / hunt for wreckages in highpop regions. From sledges and further it becomes even easier to obtain components for concrete/Rmats.
S2. Slightly increase wreckage spawn chance before opening sledges on a techtree, mb add water-specific wreckage that can be collected from Barge.

T3. Hold time for factory orders is too short.
C3. Idk, i got used to these times or learn how to play around them.
S3. In secure map mode add list of timers of your queues and/or increase hold times to 4 hours.

T4. Production buildings need a Regiment Queue.
C4. Thats one agreed :)

T5. Containers do not allow closed-loop logistics.
C5. Well, if i understand devs idea correctly, there basically should not be closed-loop container logistics system at all. But in case you want it
S5. NEW container - Universal Container :)
Appearance - about 90% shipping container model inside of 110% resource container model.
200 Rmat (yes, 1 of this is more expensive, than a whole tank)
mid-game tech (5 or 6 or even later)
60 standard cargo slots (yup, the dream)
can be locked/squadlocked as a vehicle, as well as wrenched.

T6. Lack of midline logistics facilities.
C6. There are 3 types of containers atm in the game but only 2 of em are used - resource and shipping. Barely seen any logi players with small shipping containers.
S6a. NEW BB block - Operational Crane (T2-3?)
Appearance - 90% model of ususal Crane (vehicle) without tracks atop of Tier 2 Bunker
Requirements - power (generators or fuel, idk) and special Logi branch of upgrades, first in that branch "Field Logistics" upgrade in that case)
Cost - 200 Bmat or 20 Metal beams
Can enter this block from outside and inside via door.
Has to be 1 of 6 initial BB block, 1 crane per BB max
Uses charge (as SC and radar) on rotation,packing and loading/unloading (shot), full charge - 5-8 small shipping containers.
S6b. NEW BB block - Small Loading Platform (T1)
Appearance - just low-profile wooden square with white cargo markings alike standard loading platform
150 Bmat (if wooden) or 10 Metal Beams (if metal)
3 max per 1 Operational Crane (e.g. BB)
Requirements - must be connected to Operational Crane or be placed diagonally (tetris, for Z,T,S-shape - one of 2 central blocks should be crane, for J/L-shape - 2nd among 3 in line, for O-shape - any)
S6c. NEW Truck - Truck Crane Manipulator
Appearance - standard Truck model with small manipulator behind cabin, double back row of wheels and square platform as on Flatbed
Tech level - very low, 1 or 2, 3 tops
Production cost - 30 Rmat or 350 Bmat at Garage
1 standard cargo slot (as on Flatbed)
1 small container platform (also if this gets a go - possible small square palette of 30-40 metal beams/sandbags/barbed wire HYPE)
Press F to deploy (4 small legs X-shape near wheels when deployed)
Operating crane-manipulator consumes fuel
Can only lift "square" container/palette form-factor (e.g. when try to lift packed vehicle/arty/big containers - "Can't lift - target too bulky")
10% faster than a Flatbed

T7. Uncrating materials from stockpiles can be extremely tedious due to the fact that stacks do not easily merge
S7. see S1

T8. Cannot process an entire freighter worth of salvage into Basic Materials
C8. idk, i learned frim a squadmate a trick - pull the last one salvage recource container in Emats, grab a truck, unload about 2-2.5k Bmat in truck to seaport/storage or on factories/MPF, cancel Emats and reload em in Bmat queue.
S8. Increase cap for refined mats to 13k and/or when cancel queue - non-refined mats don't drop in quick inventory of refinery, only to vehicle/crate inventory

T9. Crate limits within Reserve Stockpiles are too low
C9. Depends on a situation. True for huge logi squads and regiments, not so true for 30-40 active players clan with about 2-4 hours each day operations.
S9. Simply bump up the limit (which is imho boring) or make an option like in BB - you can have a larger single stockpile, but it will consume BS/GS/Bmat(it will consume in crates crates inside of it), and you have to vote for it (like special stockpile upgrade branch), BUT when fully voted/upgraded - that stockpile can hold raw recources (for organized concrete building BBs).

T10. Snowstorms should not happen on the first day of a war.
C10. Encountered that one, haven't felt it. "Improvise, adapt, overcome". Was simply doing mine runs, orginizing winter time parkings, refueling mine tankers and building fire pits in mines to fast-swap them. Weather can give as an advantage for logi (e.g. riding on the ice) as well as disadvantage. Change of weather might be frustrating, but imho adapting to current forecast is one of ingame challenges i as a player enjoyed overcoming.

T11. Three unstucks per war are too few.
C11. Well, in 86th war i used only 2 of em. Imho ppl are always in a hurry, so they simply don't hit brakes, try to rige carefully, avoid collisions. Almost nobody used home base training grounds for riding/swimming in narrow roads/waterways.
S11. 3 unstucks per week from the start of new war, also as QoL make that count visible in F1 near "Commends available"

Bonus
S12-13-14. As mentioned earlier in S6ab - in case of implementing BB Logi Upgrade Branch
NEW Superstructure - Big Loading Area (Last one in logi upgrade branch)
3x3 concrete block (same for SC and radar)
2 stationary cranes can be connected
Uses enery for loading/unloading/packing
NEW BB Structure - Loading Area (mid logi upgrade branch)
1x3 concrete block
1 stationary cranes can be connected
NEW BB Structure - Stationary Crane
1 additional concrete block for manmade stationary crane
Appearance - same as seaport loading

Looking forward to see discussions from players on specific ways to improve current logi issues, as well as even more looking forward for devs to see this post and maybу grab some ideas listed.

Thanks for your time to read this TL;DR

[Pilot]

It should be noted that LOGI just wants communication with the devs, not changes right away.

[AmesNFire]

Originally posted by The Pilot:

It should be noted that LOGI just wants communication with the devs, not changes right away.

Also that many of OP's thoughts about how to improve logistics have been discussed by LOGI on their discord already. The Open Letter being a simple request by LOGI to get some sort of acknowledgment abound their concerns by the devs.

[Dirk Manderin]

Originally posted by The Field Marshal:

The Dev's should restart the war so it will allow the players to work out a new logistics group from a fresh start instead of right in the middle of a war that needs constant supply and ban these 1800 players from the new war, they are deliberately sabotaging the war so they should be removed to eliminate their corrupting influence. Most of the things in their demands aren't even real issues so what they are doing is just sabotaging everyone fun by making a real big roadblock in the war.

Then I guess you should start handling logistics, Herr Keitel.

[CadeyrnOfAlesia]

Most of the demands of LOGI are reasonable. Some are unreasonable. However, I am very pleased that the strike is occurring because I don't think that front line soldiers fully appreciate how vital logistics is in every war and I would like them to do some logistics themselves for a change.

[BlazingScribe]

Originally posted by The Field Marshal:

Originally posted by CadeyrnOfAlesia:

Most of the demands of LOGI are reasonable. Some are unreasonable. However, I am very pleased that the strike is occurring because I don't think that front line soldiers fully appreciate how vital logistics is in every war and I would like them to do some logistics themselves for a change.

A lot of them do you underestimate the number of front line soldiers who go to the back lines yes there are those who don't appreciate the work the logistics bois do but the majority of them do. For instance on many cases when one of the fronts are losing and has practically ran out of supplies to fight myself and others brave the most danger even sometimes having to drive through hostile filled terrain to bring truck's with all the arms and munitions that front needs to hold off or even push, in many of these cases those of us who do this are praised as hero's.
So when i look at the demands these players are making i find it both selfish and unreasonable if they would have striked at the beginning of a war OK theirs room to talk but not in the middle of one you cant just halt everything in the middle of a war it needs constant supplies otherwise everyone starts fighting for scraps like rabid dogs, most of their demands are not that big of concerns and it has only caused problems for example on another discussion i got into an argument with a moron blaming it all on the front line soldiers going as far as to say the best way to fix it is every soldier does their own logistics and supplies themselves.
Imagine every soldier only making arms for there-selves then taking it up to the fronts to use alone the nodes would end up being war zones people would form coalitions hording the scrap and fighting each other for more nodes like a free for all, its so moronic it must have came out of Moronica near Shmoland after all Moronica is for morons.

First.
The whole point of a strike is to be unreasonable. It's traditionally the workers getting fed up with conditions without any reasonable method of improvement, so they flip the table and force a game change. Calling them inconsiderate misses the purpose and intent of their actions entirely. Them messing with the war is part of the strategy, as the rest of the community has an opportunity to first get annoyed at them, and then at the devs for putting these people in a position they thought this was necessary. It draws attention to their issues and puts pressure of the devs to do something about it.

Second
Banning these people would be disasterous, and of the devs do that it will quite possibly be the end of Foxhole. Many of the people involved are some of those active long term fans this game has. Most are involved with clans like 82DK, and have wide reaching connections in the games relatively small community. Kicking them all out would be a huge blow not just to them, but for all the social circles they'd tear apart in the process. Good luck keeping players in an MMO when their friends are banned en masse.

Third.
People have been complaining about logistics forever. Every patch there has been more and more grumbling. This or something like it was going to happen. I figured people would just quit, but this is actually better. Because this demonstrates a care and enthusiasm about this game, it's community, and a desire for both to be better served. That is laudible, even if we're inconvenienced for now.

Last thing (no argument, just dork opinions)
This is so cool. This game has had a missile crisis, God knows how many emergent narrative sin battles and clan dynamics, and now groups of players are forming literal Unions and striking. That is awesome and is a wonderful demonstration about how special this game and its community are.

TL:DR, quit your bellyaching and grab some popcorn. This'll be a fun show.

[CadeyrnOfAlesia]

I agree that banning the LOGI people would be a disastrous decision. It would also be completely unfair. Field Marshal, you say that what the LOGI Union people are doing is unfair to the soldiers on the ground. And to a degree, yes. But this is their decision and so far as I am aware, no one is stopping other people from fulfilling that role. I think that this is a good thing to help soldiers gain a greater appreciation of logistics. You say that people are doing this themselves. And that is great. More people should do that to reduce the strain upon logi-mains.

As a long time logistics player, there are some problems. Mechanicswise, some minor issues ought to be rounded out, but nothing I'd go on strike for. But the main issue which exacerbates all other problems is the lack of public logistics done by front liners. They ask and ask and ask but rarely do. They have come to rely upon the logi mains and I think that this is a very bad trend. Officers need to impress upon new players the importance of keeping BBs well supplied and not wasting resources.
We need more people doing logistics so that we aren't relying on just a few clans to do everything. Share the load.
Secondly, clans need to do more public logi. Hording massive stockpiles until the end of the war is wasteful and stupid. We need more public logi in general from randoms.

[Izalith]

Originally posted by CadeyrnOfAlesia:

I agree that banning the LOGI people would be a disastrous decision. It would also be completely unfair. Field Marshal, you say that what the LOGI Union people are doing is unfair to the soldiers on the ground. And to a degree, yes. But this is their decision and so far as I am aware, no one is stopping other people from fulfilling that role. I think that this is a good thing to help soldiers gain a greater appreciation of logistics. You say that people are doing this themselves. And that is great. More people should do that to reduce the strain upon logi-mains.

As a long time logistics player, there are some problems. Mechanicswise, some minor issues ought to be rounded out, but nothing I'd go on strike for. But the main issue which exacerbates all other problems is the lack of public logistics done by front liners. They ask and ask and ask but rarely do. They have come to rely upon the logi mains and I think that this is a very bad trend. Officers need to impress upon new players the importance of keeping BBs well supplied and not wasting resources.
We need more people doing logistics so that we aren't relying on just a few clans to do everything. Share the load.
Secondly, clans need to do more public logi. Hording massive stockpiles until the end of the war is wasteful and stupid. We need more public logi in general from randoms.

As a Random non-clanman, us randoms do plenty of logi. I see tons of various non-affiliated solo logi truck drivers and manufacturers. While we are not the most efficient as a production chain, we do exist. In quite large numbers. I've been away for a bit, but as a solo logi I produced and shipped over 5,000 crates of various supplies, from B-mats, to Explosives, Heavy Weapons, etc in a single war. Which is no small feat for a solo logi.

That said, blaming the random frontliners is silly. They are just as important to the war effort as logi are. With out warm bodies on the front, Logi has no place to build anything. Most frontlines are just boring stalemates anyway. I played Frontline for about 3 hours today in which was just us staring at each other, firing potshots, grenades, and infrequently a tank would poke forward and fire a shell before retreating. 3 hours of nothing. No ground gained or lost, I honestly have more fun driving a logi truck than I do those kinds of fronts (which are about 75% of the Front line experience in my personal experience). I'll normally do 3-5 Logi round trips before doing a bit of frontline stalemate combat. Then go back to logi.

I also see plenty of people wanting to learn logi, who are either new, or from the front. The real issue, is the hoarding the clans do. You'll find "Private" BB's full of supplies where there are almost 24/7 stationed guards who scream at you if you touch any items "Meant for special operations of XYZ clan". 300+ Crocodile charges, 1000+ Shells of Tank ammunition, mortar, you name it. "Go farm your own".

I understand wanting to utilise the materials you have gathered, and the organised assaults are just about the only time real ground is gained. We do need clans to do this, but it comes at a great cost. Many clans, both Logi mains, and Regular Operations, bleed the logi hubs dry. They scroop all the scroop, mine all the components, and leave the public logi with... very little available to actually build anything of importance. Trying to Get R-Mats is damn near impossible, because these clans basically 24/7 camp it. Hoard it, and then yell at other players to go away their clan "claimed" the resource depot.

I've been teamkilled countless times, while going to get components, or R-mats, and in extreme cases regular scroop. Then you also get superly over-zealous and paranoid players who harass new comers in scrap fields as being spies.

TL:DR Clanman bad. They scare off new logi, and hoard supplies, but then complain that frontliners don't do logi.

[AsianFood]

Originally posted by The Field Marshal:

The Dev's should restart the war so it will allow the players to work out a new logistics group from a fresh start instead of right in the middle of a war that needs constant supply and ban these 1800 players from the new war, they are deliberately sabotaging the war so they should be removed to eliminate their corrupting influence. Most of the things in their demands aren't even real issues so what they are doing is just sabotaging everyone fun by making a real big roadblock in the war.

LMAO Union Busting in a Game? ALSOOOOO Devs don't even got the balls to perma ban people who use alts to grief logi what makes you think they will even think of banning 1800 which is also a PR disaster by escalating the situation? You're not very smart are you?

[CadeyrnOfAlesia]

Originally posted by Izalith:

Originally posted by CadeyrnOfAlesia:

I agree that banning the LOGI people would be a disastrous decision. It would also be completely unfair. Field Marshal, you say that what the LOGI Union people are doing is unfair to the soldiers on the ground. And to a degree, yes. But this is their decision and so far as I am aware, no one is stopping other people from fulfilling that role. I think that this is a good thing to help soldiers gain a greater appreciation of logistics. You say that people are doing this themselves. And that is great. More people should do that to reduce the strain upon logi-mains.

As a long time logistics player, there are some problems. Mechanicswise, some minor issues ought to be rounded out, but nothing I'd go on strike for. But the main issue which exacerbates all other problems is the lack of public logistics done by front liners. They ask and ask and ask but rarely do. They have come to rely upon the logi mains and I think that this is a very bad trend. Officers need to impress upon new players the importance of keeping BBs well supplied and not wasting resources.
We need more people doing logistics so that we aren't relying on just a few clans to do everything. Share the load.
Secondly, clans need to do more public logi. Hording massive stockpiles until the end of the war is wasteful and stupid. We need more public logi in general from randoms.

As a Random non-clanman, us randoms do plenty of logi. I see tons of various non-affiliated solo logi truck drivers and manufacturers. While we are not the most efficient as a production chain, we do exist. In quite large numbers. I've been away for a bit, but as a solo logi I produced and shipped over 5,000 crates of various supplies, from B-mats, to Explosives, Heavy Weapons, etc in a single war. Which is no small feat for a solo logi.

That said, blaming the random frontliners is silly. They are just as important to the war effort as logi are. With out warm bodies on the front, Logi has no place to build anything. Most frontlines are just boring stalemates anyway. I played Frontline for about 3 hours today in which was just us staring at each other, firing potshots, grenades, and infrequently a tank would poke forward and fire a shell before retreating. 3 hours of nothing. No ground gained or lost, I honestly have more fun driving a logi truck than I do those kinds of fronts (which are about 75% of the Front line experience in my personal experience). I'll normally do 3-5 Logi round trips before doing a bit of frontline stalemate combat. Then go back to logi.

I also see plenty of people wanting to learn logi, who are either new, or from the front. The real issue, is the hoarding the clans do. You'll find "Private" BB's full of supplies where there are almost 24/7 stationed guards who scream at you if you touch any items "Meant for special operations of XYZ clan". 300+ Crocodile charges, 1000+ Shells of Tank ammunition, mortar, you name it. "Go farm your own".

I understand wanting to utilise the materials you have gathered, and the organised assaults are just about the only time real ground is gained. We do need clans to do this, but it comes at a great cost. Many clans, both Logi mains, and Regular Operations, bleed the logi hubs dry. They scroop all the scroop, mine all the components, and leave the public logi with... very little available to actually build anything of importance. Trying to Get R-Mats is damn near impossible, because these clans basically 24/7 camp it. Hoard it, and then yell at other players to go away their clan "claimed" the resource depot.

I've been teamkilled countless times, while going to get components, or R-mats, and in extreme cases regular scroop. Then you also get superly over-zealous and paranoid players who harass new comers in scrap fields as being spies.

TL:DR Clanman bad. They scare off new logi, and hoard supplies, but then complain that frontliners don't do logi.

Agreed. Regiments need to understand that this is a war effort, not a private business. Regiments are part of an army and that army is Warden/Colonial.

[RTX 5080 FE(Mr Happy)]

the devs do not care.

[AmesNFire]

Originally posted by The Field Marshal:

Discussions Rules and Guidelines

go read em.

The irony of you saying this knows no bounds considering multiple comments of yours have been deleted for being toxic.

[Antik]

Originally posted by The Field Marshal:

Originally posted by Toothless Raider:

the devs do not care.

No AAA game dev's don't care like EA, Blizzard, CDPR, Rockstar the list can go on AA game dev's at least care, do you blame them for not getting involved in the mess the players have made either the dev's of a game take a stand at the beginning or they never do. Foxhole used to be so much better back in the day shame how things get ruined when humans use things.

Devs can't just bend the knee just because enough people demand for something. What if enough Warden Clans unite and start having demands and if devs don't comply then a large chunk of Wardens stop playing, ruining the game for everyone?

[Des]

Originally posted by Antik:

Originally posted by The Field Marshal:

No AAA game dev's don't care like EA, Blizzard, CDPR, Rockstar the list can go on AA game dev's at least care, do you blame them for not getting involved in the mess the players have made either the dev's of a game take a stand at the beginning or they never do. Foxhole used to be so much better back in the day shame how things get ruined when humans use things.

Devs can't just bend the knee just because enough people demand for something. What if enough Warden Clans unite and start having demands and if devs don't comply then a large chunk of Wardens stop playing, ruining the game for everyone?

in a game where it pits 2 factions against each other and they come together to demand changes that will benefit both sides equally.

that is something you should listen too and give at least a response too.

this isn't a thing like their weapon op plz nerf or i want bigger gun for my faction.
if both sides agree to come together over it, then it is a real issue with the game.

[Faded]

Originally posted by CadeyrnOfAlesia:

Most of the demands of LOGI are reasonable. Some are unreasonable. However, I am very pleased that the strike is occurring because I don't think that front line soldiers fully appreciate how vital logistics is in every war and I would like them to do some logistics themselves for a change.

This specifically made me stop scrapping, frontline players are so wasteful I got discouraged to continue bringing them anything.

[Antik]

Originally posted by Des:

Originally posted by Antik:

Devs can't just bend the knee just because enough people demand for something. What if enough Warden Clans unite and start having demands and if devs don't comply then a large chunk of Wardens stop playing, ruining the game for everyone?

in a game where it pits 2 factions against each other and they come together to demand changes that will benefit both sides equally.

that is something you should listen too and give at least a response too.

this isn't a thing like their weapon op plz nerf or i want bigger gun for my faction.
if both sides agree to come together over it, then it is a real issue with the game.

Oh, so as long as enough people band together, regardless of faction, they can push changes onto devs, even if not everyone agrees with the changes since they will have lasting impacts on the fronts?