AI Turrets, WTF?

[Vexus]

I was interested in the game for a quick moment, but then I saw you guys have automated turrets? In a sandbox MMO? You realize that having such things takes away a lot of the player experience?

Everyone playing these games wants to have a meaningful impact on the outcome of events. If they get killed by a wall of AI turrets - that is not skill vs. skill, that is ♥♥♥♥♥♥ AI affecting the outcome. You can't sneak past some guy who just got up to take a♥♥♥♥♥♥IRL, you just die to a turret.

This game reminds me of an old game Infantry Online. I'm tempted to buy this on sale now to see how it turns out down the line. The AI kills it for me though and I'm certain that is why there's a drop off in playerbase. Losing the war? Want to drive a vehicle deep into enemy territory, crash into a supply area and cause havoc and try and turn things around? Too bad. AI will kill you instantly.

I was watching a streamer who was new to the game get into some bushes and run 'behind enemy lines'. Cool! Maybe he'll get a kill before getting picked off. Result? Pops out of a bush and gets instantly killed by the turret right next to that bush that he couldn't see.

I didn't realize until I saw some other videos how that's the main part of the gameplay. Turrets. AI. When they say players are the content, they lie. The content is placing a million turrets as you advance. Or destroying millions of AI turrets as you assault. Just lame PvE.

To the devs, I hope you rethink this mechanic. You don't need it. I'd suggest making these into sentry lookouts that reveal enemy movement, not kill off players. Showing enemy movement would build suspense and add some of the 'unknown' if you got them all or not. Simply causing AI to end the threat is boring af.

[Vexus]

Just a reminder: I do not think AI are a major issue, or hard to defeat, or hard to deal with, or overpowered, or anything. I am however certain, from experience now, that 90% of the gameplay time is spent dealing with AI.

You cannot assault, because of AI. You cannot defend, without AI to counter their AI.

From the website, which I read everything about the game before buying:

Can you play with bots?
There are no bots in Foxhole. Part of the core philosophy of the game is that everything you see was created, manufactured and built by players. We are committed to delivering the best possible version of that experience.

There are bots manning the foxholes, so this is very misleading.

Also this page: http://www.foxholegame.com/about-foxhole

No mention of "Build automated turret defenses to secure your base!" as a feature. The fact that most gameplay success involves pushing your AI turret line is completely ignored in any discussion I've seen so far.

Ammunition, resources, and information are limited, requiring players to work together to survive

Except for AI turrets, which have infinite ammunition and grenades.

Combat where skills and strategy matter more than stats or XP points

Skills as in mortar enemy AI turrets so you can build your own AI turrets to push your front line of AI turrets.

Reconnaissance is as important as firepower

Except you can't really recon if the enemy (as in, a good enemy) lines the map with AI turrets.

I think turrets are fine; I've played lots of games with them. The problem I have is that there's no tug of war. Recon scouts a howitzer squad setting up? Sorry, can't assault them without going through 20+ AI turrets first - so the howi team doesn't need to coordinate any defenders or do anything special, just set up and fire away. Want to mount a desperate offensive and push hard at the enemy with 10 people? Sorry, can't do that as AI turrets will mow you down with extreme accuracy and infinite ammo. Want to go after an enemy supply line by taking out some trucks? Sorry, AI turrets are there to soak up all your resources before you can even get there to do just that.

I'm OK with all of that if it were confined to town defense, where securing terrain between towns relied on the presence of actual players. If placing a foxhole and manning it with a real person were a thing to secure a forward position. As it is, the push of AI turrets is the game.

I'm playing on Westgate, and yesterday we held Kingstone for hours. Atreties reports our fortress wall turret might still be standing; he set up a large majority of the AI turret defense in Kingstone yesterday, doing what is necessary when the enemy was flooding through the gates into the urban territory. Sephka is in our group and was QM for 12hours or more, and it is a lot of fun. Atreties and I placed the current Kingstone FOB after the town fell, and we got the howitzer shots on the enemy's southern Kingstone FOB to finally take it out and make some movement (again, by placing lots of AI turrets) southwards. It's definitely a team effort, and everyone on the team played a part in those successes with loigistics runs, scrapping as well as simply fighting in another area to draw away forces from the town, so I'm not taking credit, just simply pointing out how important every person making an effort truly is. I like the game, it is a lot of fun, I just wish I didn't end up figuring out how to best deal with AI turrets as the main focus of defense and offense.

As it stands, whomever can pull together the most ranged explosives to take out the enemy AI turrets is the winner for any push - IF they also then have someone able to build AI turrets forward. Plus high ground with the weird view angle and aiming is extremely overpowered for those on high ground. Anyway, I'm in queue. I'm glad there's a few people who understand the perspective. It doesn't break the game, it's simply that most of the game revolves around it with no mention of this mechanic being such a big focus of the game.

Edit: Finally, doesn't anyone else have a problem with AI turrets being 10x more effective than players for the same role?

[Automne Eternel]

Alright, let's put things in a simple way.
This is a game based on World War 1, at that time there were frontlines: occupied temporary defenses (like trenches, which were everywhere at that time) and occupied permanent defenses (like civilian buildings or natural formations), where the majority of ressources and men was focused to apply pressure and advance slowly but surely until you overcome the ennemy with your different strategies.

To make the concept of zone control work in this game there are automated defenses (which have constraints and those constraints are open to be discussed) made to GUARD and SECURE advances, they are temporary and are made to be FAR from being AS EFFECTIVE AS PLAYERS on fronts.
In fact, at best, AI defenses left alone are merely slowing down the ennemy from taking control, a single breach in walls or AI defenses can be the end of controling a town or the control of a choke point, for example.
Defenses are only there to help zoning and enhancing players' effectiveness in defense positions, if you put a single player in a single foxhole the player will be ten times more dangerous and effective as a player AND than an automated defense, but still be vulnerable to a prepared assault because of being INSIDE a static defense.

That's simply how wars were mainly fought at that time, and Foxhole emulates those wars, that means the game is about frontlines yes, but it's also far from being the only focus, there are many ways combined to overcome the ennemy, however zoning/controling/securing gainned ground is a big part of it but rarely win by themselves.
In any case, you have to think to be effective in this game, running around aimlessly will never bring anything useful to the collective effort.

The game is about solidarity, collective moves and decitions, automated defenses force those behaviors to happen everywhere! It's an awesome phenomenon!

[Pickled]

Op dont like AI.

Close ?

[Atreties]

My biggest issue with the turrets is easily the fact that they have infinite ammo. If you had to actively work at keeping them stocked somehow (perhaps the new garrison supplies feature?) And you knew that the enemy lost SOMETHING when they killed you with turrets, it wouldn't feel so bad, but as it stands, they lose nothing.

You could build guns and ammo, or you could build infinite ammo.

You could make things that can be dropped by your players and stolen by the enemy, or you can make something that can't.

You should have to make a choice to stock your AI or your players.

I love the fact that almost everything you see in the game is made by players. Except for the tend of thousands of rounds of ammo and grenades fired by the turrets.

[kampfer91]

It is already a chore to gather materials for gun and bullet and now you are asking the scrap slave to work more ?
Your suggestion gonna put a dense on logistic .

[Atreties]

Good. The AI is a powerful tool, and you should have to pay upkeep on it. This is a game that does not hold your hand or make things easy in almost any way... Except for the infinite ammo turrets.

[Nix]

Originally posted by Atreties:

Good. The AI is a powerful tool, and you should have to pay upkeep on it. This is a game that does not hold your hand or make things easy in almost any way... Except for the infinite ammo turrets.

Those turrets simply stop a single person from capturing an entire outpost, a really small group can effectively track and destroy the tunnels and/or the turret itself with no issues.

[Atreties]

So? Ease of dealing with them is not the point of the OP and it is not the point of my post

[Automne Eternel]

There is nothing clear about what they want to talk about, from the beginning it is just a hate speech that does not want to say its name, they have no interest to discuss anything, they are just spewing their hate about something we could call "walls that hurt you if you get a little too close to them". They said nothing about zone control, showing their short sight of the game. As far as we can see, they don't own the game nor played it at all, by the way.

Also they are just showing strong dissaproval for anything that requires thinking (in discussing intellegently here, and about strategies in game), they are even in denial how the game is thought to be by its creators. As I said previously, this is total garbage.

If you want to make another balance thread, go ahead it's cool, but personally I wouldn't call it "AI Turrets, WTF?" and put all my hatred inside of it instead of intellegent sharing of views and experiences, that's just screaming "I'm angry and dumb, and I want you to know it"

[十碗炸酱面]

游戏内拥有造价更高的防御炮台，但是防御坑道的AI设定让防御炮台 完全失去了 意义！低造价的自动防御设施，让这个游戏已经完全变成了塔防游戏！而 失去了 玩家对坑的策略性！

[十碗炸酱面]

Originally posted by Nix:

Originally posted by Atreties:

Good. The AI is a powerful tool, and you should have to pay upkeep on it. This is a game that does not hold your hand or make things easy in almost any way... Except for the infinite ammo turrets.

Those turrets simply stop a single person from capturing an entire outpost, a really small group can effectively track and destroy the tunnels and/or the turret itself with no issues.

炮塔的存在没有问题！而在于防御坑道的自动AI，这个设定 降低了 自动防御设施的制造成本！

[十碗炸酱面]

Originally posted by Atreties:

My biggest issue with the turrets is easily the fact that they have infinite ammo. If you had to actively work at keeping them stocked somehow (perhaps the new garrison supplies feature?) And you knew that the enemy lost SOMETHING when they killed you with turrets, it wouldn't feel so bad, but as it stands, they lose nothing.

You could build guns and ammo, or you could build infinite ammo.

You could make things that can be dropped by your players and stolen by the enemy, or you can make something that can't.

You should have to make a choice to stock your AI or your players.

I love the fact that almost everything you see in the game is made by players. Except for the tend of thousands of rounds of ammo and grenades fired by the turrets.

Your idea is great

[Tooten]

As someone who quit playing after 80+ hours because of the AI, I completely agree. I want to come back to play so bad, but the AI legit ruins it. They have infinite ammo, 360 degrees view, 2 hits kill, and 30-50 yard range, it's complete ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. I know I won't be coming back until it's fixed.

[kampfer91]

Let 's me guess , you just bump rush into one without having a plan or intel ?

[FuriousSquirrel]

You're insane to think that there is a problem with AI. I've played this game long enough to rarely ever be killed by SO and more so it's so easy to destroy the AI when you understand the mechanics of the game and you use stuff to your advantage. The most AI you need to be destroying is a maybe a couple, once you've breached, it's super easy from there on. Get your head out of the sand.