Pathologic 2

Pathologic 2

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ian.alvord Sep 21, 2019 @ 5:28am
What's up with Aspity?
Going by the lore of the game. Wouldn't she be immune to the plague?

She isn't like the city folk. She is much more connected to the Steppe and the old ways. The Sand-pest shouldn't target her.

Also, she is said by many to not be human. Like the worms, she is made from the earth, Which again, would lead me to think that she should be immune. Any thoughts?
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Showing 16-30 of 31 comments
ian.alvord Sep 22, 2019 @ 5:49am 
Originally posted by Fauxy:
I don't think the heart is your heart. :rickweeks: The Earth is alive in Pathologic, literally,

I also find it odd that the "living-earth" is concentrated to only that small area. You can't dig holes because it hurts the earth; but surly it isn't the case in the other parts of the country.
NoTimeToWait Sep 22, 2019 @ 8:53am 
Originally posted by ian.alvord:
Originally posted by Fauxy:
I don't think the heart is your heart. :rickweeks: The Earth is alive in Pathologic, literally,

I also find it odd that the "living-earth" is concentrated to only that small area. You can't dig holes because it hurts the earth; but surly it isn't the case in the other parts of the country.

"You can't dig holes" is just a rule local people made to prevent them from spreading disease again. The blood collected in the hollows in the earth for centuries, and somehow the bacteria developed there. So if you dig too deep, you will free the pathogen. The rule appeared after multiple times this pathogen was freed. Quite possible this piece of lore local people just made up and incorporated in their system of believes
Last edited by NoTimeToWait; Sep 22, 2019 @ 9:04am
Demetry842 Sep 22, 2019 @ 12:49pm 
Originally posted by Fauxy:
I don't think the heart is your heart. :rickweeks: The Earth is alive in Pathologic, literally, even in P1. But I don't think it's fair to bring P1 lore into it, a lot has changed.
.........

Literally from a game:

"- Talk to me...
- Who are you?
- I'm your heart. You weaved the things, and now - you can hear me, like you are talking with someone else...".

Pretty straight, for my taste.
It's not a lore... it's - plot. The game have a really good, tough, and well thought out story. So... usually, all parts of the story (except few minor side lines) can be confirmed (in game). It's not... "surrealism". More about detective - where all can looks strange and mystical, in a beginning. But it's just because player haven't all parts of the puzzle.
_______________________

About "digging" - better talk after the game will be finished. When people can play like a Changeling. This town - isn't that simple, how it can looks, for a first sight.
ian.alvord Sep 22, 2019 @ 12:57pm 

About "digging" - better talk after the game will be finished. When people can play like a Changeling. This town - isn't that simple, how it can looks, for a first sight.

I'm looking forward to more of the game, but so far I HATE changeling.

One look at the sky tells me that the town/world isn't normal. Though to be blunt, Mark Immortell pretty much shows you from the beginning that the whole thing is staged.

I honestly get tired of fourth-wall breaks at times.
Last edited by ian.alvord; Sep 22, 2019 @ 12:58pm
Demetry842 Sep 22, 2019 @ 3:51pm 
Uhg... "fourth-wall" - it's just a stupid (for my taste) theater slang. (Some people use it without even knowing the meaning).
Many works of literature - reflect reality (or have several levels of reality), and affect the viewer. But it doesn't mean, that you can't convey the meaning by ordinary words. Words that everyone understands.

I'm prefer talking about plot. Not about... rumors... fanfic... etc...
IMHO plot - much more interesting. Yep this game - reflect reality (in many places). And yep - here we have few levels of narrative. But it's not some.... "mumbo-jumbo". All levels of the story - important. All thing - pretty logical. But they are logical when the game is completed. For now - we have only 1\3 of the plot. No wonder, that some things may seem weird.
ian.alvord Sep 22, 2019 @ 4:01pm 
And Rat Prophet mentioning his name written in the top corner...? That's hardly a part of the plot, nor does it reflect life. It's a fourth wall break plain and simple, as are many things in this game.
Demetry842 Sep 22, 2019 @ 5:07pm 
See! What happens, when someone use slang...

"Fourth-wall" it's a technique. Plot - it's a story.

THEY CANNOT BE CONTRASTED, OR COMPARED. Just as you can not compare the writer's handwriting with the contents of the book. Or compare the taste of ice cream with its form (square strawberry flavor better than triangular strawberry flavor).

"Fourth-wall" this is a technique - when an actor speaks directly to the viewer. But that does not change the plot (only the way to convey information). And this does not mean that every word of the actor should be trusted. Some authors use this technique to create a special character - a joker.

To create intrigue, confuse the viewer, play a trick on him, or make him think - separating the truth from the lie.

Some authors are trying to break the fourth wall. And make the audience - participants in the performance. But - agane it's just a technique. Story will be told anyway. Especially in a PC game - where you can't really change anything, for real. (another feature of the game is the comparison of real life with the theater - where it is very difficult to go beyond the prescribed role).

Rat Prophet - it's a "troll" and pest (joker). And, by the plot, he was born in a dirty rag, in a theater. And fled from there. Now he makes fun of others and spoils the performance.

A person who tries to distract the player with meaningless chatter. But we are deviated from the topic. The tricks of the rat prophet - not otherwise. :)
Last edited by Demetry842; Sep 22, 2019 @ 7:59pm
Renoehe Sep 23, 2019 @ 12:18am 
Originally posted by Demetry842:
Originally posted by Fauxy:
I don't think the heart is your heart. :rickweeks: The Earth is alive in Pathologic, literally, even in P1. But I don't think it's fair to bring P1 lore into it, a lot has changed.
.........

Literally from a game:

"- Talk to me...
- Who are you?
- I'm your heart. You weaved the things, and now - you can hear me, like you are talking with someone else...".

Pretty straight, for my taste.

You've cropped out the rest of the conversation, where you very much have the choice to resist the heart's words as lies.

"This is a lie. Or are you saying the thousands that died in the Termitary were not of the Kin?"
"I'm not an animal. I'm human."
"I won't be one of you. I'm a human, not a bull."

It says:
"Merge with us. Return to us. We love you. [...] Return to your body, tangher... and your body is your people."

I believe the heart is the Earth, trying to convince you to accept its will as inevitable, that you are already part of it, part of the animal, and to kill it for the blood for the panacea is wrong. But we all have a choice. Anything is right so long as it is willed, says Burakh.

But then, I can also say, when you end your conversation with the large heart you can say:
"You're just an echo." or
"No. You're not just an echo."

Both are valid.

This isn't really the kind of game for rigid ideas about how it should be interpreted. Belief is an important part of the game. What you believe is right informs your choices. Much of the conflict is around the differences between what everyone believes to be right: what the town believes, what the Kin believes, what the healers believe, even what you, the player, believe against what Mark Imortell and the devs believe.

Treating it like it's a puzzle with a definite solution is a fool's errand. The text in a book is unchanging, but our experience of it as individuals is not all the same. You can't just put aside what you don't like and call it tricks and meaningless chatter. Or, well, I guess you can, but you're not going to convince other people to think that way if they believe differently.
ian.alvord Sep 23, 2019 @ 3:03am 
Yea, I'm with Fauxy on this one. You can't really trust anything down the rabbit hole (or should I say cow hole? lol)
Demetry842 Sep 23, 2019 @ 2:35pm 
Originally posted by Fauxy:
....

Much of the conflict is around the differences between what everyone believes to be right: what the town believes, what the Kin believes, what the healers believe, even what you, the player...

Agreed.

But the "blind belief" - does not help against plague. Your interpretation is similar to one of the children's games (which you can find in the city). "Sky train" achivement. Сhildren believed that if you really-really want - the train with supplies will arrive in the city. The result was... disappointing.

The choice must be reasonable, thoughtful, and reflected in the world. Isn't it?

Originally posted by Fauxy:
........You've cropped out the rest of the conversation, where you very much have the choice to resist the heart's words as lies.

I cut it out. because we had no talk about whether the words of the heart were true. We talked about the nature of the heart.

I think that the words of the heart - it's a lie (not all, but some of them). But it's a lie because it's just the Burakh's thoughts. Just as when he was talking to the doll, recalling the recipes of potions. And he is confused (so, it's not a straight lie, just mistake).
I dont think that the heart - it's the EARTH. Nowhere mentioned that Burakh, or anyone else in the world, is capable of speaking directly to the Earth. REVERSAL. This point of view is directly refuted in the plot of the Changeling.

I like talking about different options, different choices, etc. But....

"PLANET EARTH\NATURE (literally) that is tricking you into becoming an animal. Saying that you have to give up human language. Pretending to be your heart, and at the same time speaking pure English (EARTH by pure english, tells you that you should not... speak pure english!!!)"

Cmon folk... it doesn't look very smooth. In any worlds :)
Last edited by Demetry842; Sep 23, 2019 @ 3:01pm
Renoehe Sep 23, 2019 @ 9:31pm 
Originally posted by Demetry842:

The choice must be reasonable, thoughtful, and reflected in the world. Isn't it?

It is? You open the wound in the diurnal ending. Blood gushes out, the heart's blood, living blood. None of that is a metaphor in the sense of plot.

Originally posted by Demetry842:
I cut it out. because we had no talk about whether the words of the heart were true. We talked about the nature of the heart.

I think that the words of the heart - it's a lie (not all, but some of them). But it's a lie because it's just the Burakh's thoughts. Just as when he was talking to the doll, recalling the recipes of potions. And he is confused (so, it's not a straight lie, just mistake).
I dont think that the heart - it's the EARTH. Nowhere mentioned that Burakh, or anyone else in the world, is capable of speaking directly to the Earth. REVERSAL. This point of view is directly refuted in the plot of the Changeling.

How can you talk about something as if it is fact and then ignore that the source you're taking it from doesn't even treat it as fact? Just mentioning it thinking no-one will double check you?

This is what I was saying. You have hard set beliefs about what the story is and you want to belittle what other people see in it instead. What makes the Changeling's story more valid than the Haruspex's? Coming last doesn't make her worldview more right. You don't even know how her story will be rewritten in Pathologic 2.

Originally posted by Demetry842:
"PLANET EARTH\NATURE (literally) that is tricking you into becoming an animal. Saying that you have to give up human language. Pretending to be your heart, and at the same time speaking pure English (EARTH by pure english, tells you that you should not... speak pure english!!!)"

Cmon folk... it doesn't look very smooth. In any worlds :)
So you think the 4th wall breaking stuff is "just a technique" but somehow the narrative convention of an inhuman character speaking comprehensible language to make a comprehensible argument when it needs to make a comprehensible argument is a plot hole? What should it speak instead, Klingon? A cipher language that you have to collect puzzle pieces to decode? I'm sure that would make the story a lot more gripping.:swampfrog:

You've not made much of an argument for your case, tbh. Not very smooth at all. But I don't think I'll convince you. And you won't convince me.
Last edited by Renoehe; Sep 23, 2019 @ 9:37pm
ian.alvord Sep 24, 2019 @ 4:56pm 
It's a pity we don't have a Vaatividya, Total Biscuit, or Electron Dance, to give us all the answers.
Lodis Sep 25, 2019 @ 2:38am 
Originally posted by ian.alvord:
It's a pity we don't have a Vaatividya, Total Biscuit, or Electron Dance, to give us all the answers.
+1
StrayDogFreedom Sep 25, 2019 @ 2:49pm 
I'm not going to bother with spoilers this deep into a lore thread.
I consider Aspity a "she" because she tells you in the end that Bodho created a mother for Burakh to speak to for her which she is supposed to be and "ketey" is supposed to mean older sister and several people use it for her and she accepts it.
I assume she can get the disease because
a) She might just be a shamanistic, odd regular person and not supernatural at all if you look at the game through a particular perspective so of course she can get the disease
or b) Because she is the incarnation of the past outbreak, not the current one. Even though supposedly only those who fear the outbreak or who don't abandon their humanity can get the disease according to some of the inhabitants, her time amongst humans may have effected her enough that she got "corrupted" by them and may even be scared of the disease herself. She clearly cares a lot for people who were capable of getting the plague like Isidor and yourself so maybe she considered some of their thinking as well.
Her ending conversation was really heartbreaking for me, imo. I felt terrible talking to her even though they give you several outs where you deny she's supernatural and insist she's fine and just being dramatic, I personally saw it as her being supernatural and was now dying because you decided to sacrifice her and it made me awfully sad.
The game really works this into a lot. Several worms basically sentence themselves to death just to get you some organs, asking nothing in return. Several kin/her brides/worms go out of their way to help you even though they seem to understand at least what you may potentially do to them from the outset.
Aspity really did feel like a big sister character in the beginning of the game. It would have been nice if they had given her more events or spotlight towards the end. I feel like speeding up the time was a mistake because then you miss out on a lot of opportunities to squeeze in more relationship building.
But it's bittersweet how she and the others all help you basically become the person capable of making the decision to destroy them which I think they know you are, without demanding anything in return, just because you are kin and they love you simply for being one of them.
ian.alvord Sep 25, 2019 @ 3:35pm 
Originally posted by StrayDogFreedom:
Aspity really did feel like a big sister character in the beginning of the game. It would have been nice if they had given her more events or spotlight towards the end. I feel like speeding up the time was a mistake because then you miss out on a lot of opportunities to squeeze in more relationship building.

I agree! At night when people would visit her, I would go too, hoping to get to talk to her. I met Bad Grief there once, we were surprised to see each other.

The fact that she didn't vanish/die/decompose at the end makes me think that there may be hope for her, she's a lot more human than she seems to think. Perhaps it's more like Bilbo after the ring was destroyed. She going to age very quickly or something like that.
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Date Posted: Sep 21, 2019 @ 5:28am
Posts: 31