Higher Tier Industries

[1Lt. Killroy [42ndPA]]

Still learning - I just finished the base game campaign. I know there are more scenarios and DLC out there that might address what I'm about to ask, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.

As I understand it, demand for cities does not increase until they reach a new level. That's why a level one city doesn't want vegetables...which blows my mind. Anyways, it does help you prioritize which early game raw materials go to what cities.

Thanks to Adekyn, I also understand the concept of clusters and cities supporting one another - City A makes a raw material into a process material, sends it to City B that takes the processed material and makes some sort of good. IE - cotton, to fabric, to clothing.

But what I want to double check my understanding of is the end tier goods themselves - Clothing, Furniture, Paper, Tools, Ceramics, and so forth.

Other than the clothing example I've mentioned, I've not really seen the other ones come into play much, unless a scenario called for it, like the weapons in the Civil War campaign. And as I understand it, since these goods are all end tier, that unless I'm swimming in level four cities, the smaller cities that haven't caught up yet around my HQ aren't going to be calling for these higher end goods. Is that true?

I guess my ultimate question is that....I'm not crazy for thinking most of the higher end goods don't usually come into play all that much, right? (At least, where I am in the game. I am half expecting to open up a scenario where all the North wants ceramics for some reason all of the sudden. Or if I consider buying any DLCs that maybe Mexico will want more clay for example. I don't know. Just thinking out loud. Thanks!)

[Thineboot]

Something like this but not quite right:

Demand (quantity) raises with every single citizen, we just see rounded numbers.

New goods are demanded by the city - not necessarily by citizen but industry instead - in regular steps. There are very few exceptions but as a rule of thumb you have 5K steps in 20-year games and 3.5K steps in 100-year games.
For details check out the city screen (left one) and take a closer look... and hover over those icons and number ;)

With each city level another city slot becomes available:

1. <20K: 1st Industry slot
   
2. 20K: ---
   
3. 40K: 2nd Industry slot
   
4. 60K: Museum/University/Attraction/Scenario slot
   
5. 90K: 3rd industry slot
   
6. 120K: ---

Industries can be expanded up to the actual city level, max. 5.

Edit: gardlt eye glass service :)

[chaney]

In other games, you will grow some larger Cities that want higher tier goods. The art is balancing how much you focus on this :)

Adekyn's cluster concept is a really good way to think of supplying demands. I would urge you to not follow it too strictly, as that constrains things too much. Make stuff where you can - hopefully near where it will be needed - send it where it is needed. There is no need to have a particular set of nearby Cities mutually support each other to the exclusion of other Cities nearby :) The map, with edges and distributed resources, isn't very uniform so you can set up highly asymmetric supply chains some times.

[some moron]

Originally posted by Thineboot:

New goods are demanded by the city - not necessarily by citizen but industry instead

That's not true.
That IS true for some goods, such as cattle and lumber.
But as Killroy mentions, goods such as fruit vegetables are indeed dependent on population size and are consumed by the citizens. And vegetable for example, I think is not used by any factory at all, solely by the citizens. You can confirm this by examining a small city and seeing all the goods that will become needed at a certain population level, regardless of whether any factory is built.

I am running into a similar situation where I am tasked to produce iron, but no city wants it, and I think I have to grow a gigantic city to demand steel so I can produce the iron and fulfill the quest.

Maybe in a village they can grow vegetables in their back yard, but when it becomes a city it's all highrises and need to import vegetables???

[Thineboot]

So it's not true but than it's true... really? Just to be sure, your native language is English? And you still can't use it properly? Besides all your thinking is there anything you know?

not necessarily[www.merriam-webster.com]: possibly but not certainly —used to say that something is not definitely true

[gussmed]

Originally posted by LCpl. Killroy 42ndPA:

.I'm not crazy for thinking most of the higher end goods don't usually come into play all that much, right?

That's correct. High-tier goods (toys, tools, that sort of thing) generally don't play a part unless (1) the scenario demands them directly or (2) the scenario requires a high-population city or two, and you need to make those goods in order to reach that population.

You can, of course, intentionally grow cities for your own reasons, even if the scenario doesn't require it. Larger cities consume more goods and generate more passenger traffic, which means more profits.

There are two general categories of goods: ones that will eventually be demanded by citizens directly (i.e. corn), and goods that only make other goods (i.e. cattle). Sometimes there's overlap, goods that are demanded by citizens and ALSO make other goods (i.e. wheat, which citizens eat directly, but also makes beer).

Different scenarios change the rules. Coal, for example, only makes Steel (with iron) on some maps, makes Steel and Chemicals on others, and is demanded directly by high-population cities on some maps.

The city goods screen lays out the rules for the scenario. How large the city needs to be to unlock demand for each good. Goods with no population listed are never demanded directly, only converted into other goods.

[some moron]

gmed do you know whether cotton and cattle count toward growing the city?

[1Lt. Killroy [42ndPA]]

Originally posted by some moron:

gmed do you know whether cotton and cattle count toward growing the city?

Cotton will if it has a factory to turn it into fabric/textiles. Otherwise it won't have a huge impact. Cattle will for sure as it gets turned into meat, which is something that boosts growth.

[gussmed]

Demand from industry - any industry - is treated exactly like demand from citizens. Filling demand for cotton is exactly like filling demand for wheat. Conversely, if you don’t ship cotton to a city that demands it for an industry, that counts against the 60% threshold for growth.

If the city demands the output product, i.e. cloth or meat, that counts too. So filling an industry demand often counts twice, once for filling the industry, once for having the output product.

[some moron]

Originally posted by Thineboot:

So it's not true but than it's true... really?

Sometime the universe is complicated that way.
Heck, I just had to look up why mirrors flip images left to right but not up and down.

Originally posted by Thineboot:

Besides all your thinking is there anything you know?

not necessarily[www.merriam-webster.com]: possibly but not certainly —used to say that something is not definitely true

Vegetables are certainly and necessarily used by citizens, that is definitely true, that is something I know.

English is like a second language to me.

I'm beginning to wonder whether you meant something like "sometimes by citizens, sometimes by industry" because that would make sense.
Or maybe "not always by citizens, sometimes instead by industry".
But vegetables are necessarily by citizens. But we can drop this now. If that's what you meant. At times I can't necessarily definitely understand what you are saying.

[chaney]

Hrmph. Mistakes were made.

The population dictates what CONSUMER goods are in demand, and how much the demand is.
New factories may require infeed stock that is not a CONSUMER good, but is an INDUSTRIAL input good (e.g. Cattle) or may require infeed that is both a CONSUMER and INDUSTRIAL input (e.g. Grain.)

Fulfillment of Demand is based on the "demand rate weighted" availability of CONSUMER goods only. If a CONSUMER good is available (including those which are also INDUSTRIAL inputs) then include it as fulfilled. Add the demand rates of all fulfilled CONSUMER goods, then divide by the total of the demand rates of all (fulfilled or unfulfilled) CONSUMER goods. That will yield current fulfillment. FoD is then calculated as an average over recent values. (The detail is equivalent to something like a 30 day weighted average with a 7 day characteristic time exponential decay, but is probably calculated as something like 10% of current fulfillment + 90% of the prior FoD. All from memory, please be kind with my errors and details.)

If that has been changed, please confirm! I have learned to respect gussmed's claims but this one is in contradiction to testing a few of us did a long time ago, so I want to ask "are you sure." We all had it wrong initially, but eventually agreed that it works as shown above. There is an old thread where I provided an example of an isolated City that could be starved of all goods for very clean testing if that helps.

This information is in the City Growth section of
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1293183195

Vegetables

Vegetable demand is part of the lumped abstraction of the game. Smaller towns will grow some of their own and import small quantities - not worthy of explicit representation in carloads apparently. Big Cities will need carloads. Game balance, design decision, so much is buried in abstraction I can't get worried about it.
I think I remember something like Canned Vegetables in the game. If that's right, then they may be an industrial input, too :)

[Thineboot]

It's Canned foods, chaney, and demanded in various 100-year games north of 100K.

For some reason, citizens prefer Vegetables surrounded by Steel instead of fresh :(
Well times are changing and they're starting to prefer fresh food to canned food again :)

[1Lt. Killroy [42ndPA]]

I really appreciate all the information, everyone.

[chaney]

:)

[28rommel]

LCpl. Killroy,
When you get a chance, start a new scenario, just for a quick test (of what I am about to explain).
Click on a tiny city, make sure it is a level 1 city, and one that has a Brewery would be preferable (not a Meat factory). On the information panel for the city, you will see a list of the goods the city "demands" as the city grows. You will usually see a different good demanded, every 5 thousand increase in population. Notice some items (like Cattle) say "No Demand." These types of items are only in "demand" if that city has a factory/industry that requires that specific good for production.

[1Lt. Killroy [42ndPA]]

I will give it a shot but I'm going to be offline for a few days, so I'll have to get back to you. I hope I remember :-D