Lines with multiple city stops - worth it or not?

[kiwittnz]

I currently have setup lines from one city to the next and not beyond, or city to city with sometimes a resource stop along the way.

What would be good is if I can create a line from City A to City D and stops on City B and C. I read/heard somewhere that doing that is not worth it and the game only treats this as 3 separate A to B, B to C, C to D lines. So a production good or a resource along the way from A will not be delivered to D and will only be delivered to B if it needs it?

Am I right?

[chaney]

Approximately.

The game typically operates about as described, but there are details. I'll skip most of them here and refer you to a guide (I compiled one with a lot of mechanic details uncovered by this forum.)

You CAN run a multi-stop line with an engine, but it is rarely efficient, and tends to run out of "optimal" balance. Check out Manual settings near the end of the guide I mentioned, you could use that to specify EXACTLY what to pick up and drop off exactly where.

2-stop routes tend to work well for the game. It may feel "unrealistic" but is an artifact of the way the game scales the world - basically one train represents many so you end up doing some things in not so intuitive ways for highest efficiency. An exception of note is early (low demand) freight from rural suppliers between two Cities. In that case it can be good to run Source-CityA-Source-CityB.

If you don't find the information you need in a guide or video, feel free to ask detailed questions and there are several folks who can help.

[Gwotyng]

All my express lines use multiple stops. It may be less efficient theoretically, but it is easier to manage hundreds of lines for me.

And I don't think it largely causes your lines inefficient. Because when you are playing you won't really deal with all the balance perfectly, and you will make all cities grow eventually. I use mutiple stop lines in most of my walkthough and I can still achieve highest rank without problems.

And more important, it make your lines more real, and it is satisfying to take your express line once you have completed the missions.

[Dray Prescot]

Express (Passengers and Mail) work fine with the stop at every City Routes for trains.

Freight Trains are best with limited number of stops. If I am taking a load of Grain on a long trip, then I will try to bring something back on most of the return leg, which can add a third stop most of the way back at some City nearby the Grain farm. Possibly, I will have to add a third stop to pick up a return cargo and a fourth stop to deliver it on my return trip.

If you have too many stops on a Route, then you are going to need even more trains running copies (Cloned Routes) of that Route, because of how long it is taking to do the Route. Instead have more trains running simpler and shorter different routes.

Other Freight Trains are taking a load of manufactured goods from A to B and bringing back a load of manufactured goods to A, i.e. 2 stops.

On the other hand, IF you can establish a continuous Loop (Circle) of track where trains do not turn around, then on THAT Loop of track, multiple stop Routes for Freight (manufactured goods) trains make perfect sense. However, most Loops are only 3 or 4 or 5 Cities long, so there are not that many Stops even on Loop Routes. But your Resource Trains will probably NOT be running continuous Loop Routes.

A Resource Route like A (grain) to B City to C (wood) to B City (then returning to A) is a 4 stop Route that makes perfect sense since the train does not have to reverse direction at B which saves valuable time at B, so more trains can make stops at B.

Sometimes I will have a Resource Freight Train make stops at 2 Resource Sites before going to a Small(er) City that does not need a full load of the two different Resources. However, when the City grows enough, it is better to have two trains, with each carrying a full load of ONE Resource to that City, instead of two trains BOTH making stops at BOTH Resource Stations.

[chaney]

Originally posted by Dray Prescot:

A Resource Route like A (grain) to B City to C (wood) to B City (then returning to A) is a 4 stop Route that makes perfect sense since the train does not have to reverse direction at B which saves valuable time at B, so more trains can make stops at B.

Sometimes I will have a Resource Freight Train make stops at 2 Resource Sites before going to a Small(er) City that does not need a full load of the two different Resources. However, when the City grows enough, it is better to have two trains, with each carrying a full load of ONE Resource to that City, instead of two trains BOTH making stops at BOTH Resource Stations.

If a single train can maintain supply in the ABCB route described, fine, you save the cost of a loco. If not, I see no advantage in the arrangement. If using the same Platform, there is nothing inherently faster to non-reversing being more efficient in that situation. If trains alternate which side of the Platform they use to enter and exit, all reversing, it gets all the added efficiency of swapping trains that is sought by the 1-way Platform setup. Keeping more than one on the ABCB routing can actually cause the added swap time that you are seeking to avoid. If a Platform is serving other lines a well, you may benefit from ABCB pathing if you set up two Platforms in opposing directions and enforce flow-through 1-way travel on each.

For most cases, having a Freight collect from 2 sources then enter a City has a disadvantage over using the same train to take a full load from 1 source to the City, then a full load from the 2nd source to the City. Go through the process to see what it takes to deliver a full load of both resources and you will find this reduces the distance traveled as well as the number of stops, both elements cost efficiency in terms of time and the former adds cost. If the goods have demand rates differing by a lot, this can get out of balance, but by then you probably need more than one train to keep up with demand. Put one on the higher demand good only, or set both to pick up twice at the high demand source for each time they pick up at the lower demand source. By then you have a lot of flexibility, but you'll rarely gain advantage getting goods from different sources on a single trip.

[Totemych]

Ok. there is No recipe for dealinig with problem or for a perfect match.

let's consider two situation (then you may consider adding warehouse to your network):
the 1st - in the very beginning when cities and industries are small
the 2nd - when cities and industries increases in size and production

For the 1st situation you may use several stops from rural business or cities industries limiting loads by 2 cars per station (you may use small warehouse)
For the 2nd situation you should use at least 6 car per station and thus pass-trough mode will be usefull only for 3-4 stops , where one stop is warehouse

So pass-through mode works better when number of stop is limited to 4 or 6.
If you need to supply several cities on your network don't create line for train with 8 stops at each cities - better you should divide such line into two line with fewer stops.

What about passenger and mail trains ? you should observe figures in special report for each city and decide how to implement lines to serve the trafiic. Consider how far the cities from each other (100-200 or 300-600 km).

[Dray Prescot]

Like we are all saying, as Cities keep growing, what worked fine before, is going to need to be revised in various ways, either by cloning or revising the routes (usually to fewer stops with more trains). What works best in a particular situation can take some experimenting or close analysis of the alternate solutions, and that can change when traffic conditions get clogged up.

The thing I like about ABCB(A) routes is that the turnarounds occur at the low traffic Resource Stations (A + C) where they do not hurt. But as Chaney points out, they work best where the demand for the resources from A and C at B are about the same amounts. This is just a variant on the A to B followed by C to B routes where A and C are on the same side of B (it all depends on the locations of A and C relative to B). Once B grows enough, you will want separate trains for A to B and C to B in either case, so the ABCB(A) routes (if you use them) are only temporary (although you could clone them).

As a rule of thumb, try to keep train turnarounds (reversals) at the low traffic Stations, either Resource Sites or small Cities, and try to avoid them at the high traffic City Stations.

Also get rid of Maintenance Shops at high traffic Stations, and put them in the low traffic Stations (IF you are using them at all, some players do not bother with them and just replace the engines regularly).

Once a City grows enough to have traffic congestion problems, start adding WareHouse(s) and a 2nd Station, and consider keeping most of your Express traffic going through one Station while the other Station handles mostly Freight. You do not want your Freight trains getting in the way of your Express Trains, and this WILL happen (regularly) at Signal Controlled Stations that handle a lot of BOTH Freight and Express trains. When I build a 2nd Station (at a busy large City) to handle mostly Express Trains, I will often make it a normal Station instead of the (usual) Signal Controlled 1st Station at that City, to get shorter stops at the 2nd Station for the Express trains. I will also at the same time start switching my Express Trains to a dedicated separate Express only double track between Cities.

The type of PAUSE mode you are playing with makes a big difference, Manual Pause Mode Players love to micromanage their trains and their Routes, while no pause Mode (Trainiac) Players want to get the Route Manifest (the Stops and cargo at each stop) done ONCE and leave it alone after that, and just make clones of the train as needed.

[theo20185]

Express trains determine whether or not they are express trains at the end of every trip cycle. This happens just after loading at the first stop on the cycle as long as at least 1 cycle has been completed. I like to use A->B Express connections for this reason. If a train loses express status, it has a much shorter trip to regain it. The longer the trip, the higher the chance of a random breakdown which can cause the train to lose express status for the next cycle.

A shorter express route can keep more trains in express if you have a city connection that will be too long to get an express train. One example is on the US West map from Shasta/Redding to Carson City if you elect to go around the Sierra Nevada mountain range rather than build an expensive and long tunnel. If you had a line running from Sacramento to Shasta/Redding to Carson City to Bodie, none of the trains would reach express status due to the longer connection between Shasta/Redding and Carson City. If each pair had its own dedicated route, the routes from Sacramento to Shasta/Redding and Carson City to Bodie could remain express routes.

When using The Lady, keeping express status up on more trains for more cycles is essential. Passengers do not mind switching trains at every city and will stay on your passenger network. I also think that managing trains from A->B connections is simpler in the long run. If I have to bulldoze an old layout to make room for a new one, I don't have to worry about replacing 20 trains serving 4 cities, just 6 trains serving 2 cities.

I have found that two things will kill express status for trains. The first is using waypoints. If I have an express route, and I add waypoints to the route without changing the actual route, the train will lose express status and never regain it. Characters with penalties to maintenance time will also lose express status more frequently than characters without the penalty, so elect to use maintenance stations as the train will take care of water/sand and maintenance at the same time rather than separating the two, cutting down on wait time.

[chaney]

Nice post theo20185, good details.

I don't use them much, but does the Maintenance Station actually refill supplies and do maintenance at the same time? That's a nice time savings.



On the point of trains reversing at a Station (leaving on the same side they entered) instead of the flow-through station method (leaving on the opposite side of the station from that entered) I want to clarify thinking a bit.

The issue is swap time: the time between one train starting to leave a particular Platform and the next train stopping there. When a train leaves out the same side that the next train is entering from, the new train has to wait for the first to clear the track. When a train leaves out the opposite side from the next train, the new train doesn't have to wait as long for clear track. In my testing long ago the effect allowed a bit higher throughput, maybe 8% for full trains going from my poor memory. That's worth considering, but not huge.

The important point: it doesn't matter which side the train at the Platform entered, but which side the NEXT train is coming from. Leaving the Platform on the side opposite the new entering train is what improves swap time. If trains all come in from the same side, this means flow-through 1-way is quicker for swapping. If trains alternate entering from one side then the other, then all trains should reverse for the fastest swap times and throughput.

[Dray Prescot]

Chaney, an interesting and useful perspective on train reversals versus going straight through.

A somewhat related point because of the sheer length of additional track on both sides of the Station, Signal Control Stations will have longer times between trains using the same platform At a Station in heavy traffic situations (in light traffic situations, the next train will use a different platform than the first train). Also trains changing tracks going into or leaving a Signal Control Station will block temporarily other trains trying to enter or leave that Station.

This is why some players prefer to keep using the old style Stations versus the Signal Control Stations. When I start establishing a separate double track network that is dedicated to Express Trains, I will usually (at some point) start building 2nd Stations at very busy large Cities for the dedicated Express doubletrack to use, and normally I will make those new 2nd Stations the old type of Stations to get faster times (and therefore better payoffs) for the Express Trains. Also so I can keep Freight and Express trains using different platforms and tracks. Signal Control Stations constantly mix them up, costing the Express trains time and income.