Waypoints Interfere with Express

[theo20185]

I am using the public beta branch.

I noticed that whenever I used waypoints on my express lines, they either would not build up their express meter or they would lose it quickly.

I ran a test on the west coast map in sandbox mode using 1830-1850. I would run a direct line, double tracked, from San Francisco to Sacramento. I would save this setup as my test cases.

For the first test case, the route be direct from SF to SAC with no waypoints. The train would quickly become an express.

The second test case was a line from SF to SAC with waypoints in between to "lock" the train to this set of tracks. The route and distance were the same, there were no "stops" as the train keeps moving. This train would build the express meter very slowly. After 6 tours, it still had not attained express. After 9 tours, it held the express status for 1 more tour, then lost it again on the tenth tour.

The third test case was a train that started with a direct route from SF to SAC (no waypoints). After a single tour, it attained express status. I let the train run for ten tours total, and it never lost express status. When I introduced waypoints, the train lost express on the next tour and did not gain it back over the next 5 tours.

I also ran test cases with a three city cluster. A single train running from SF to SAC to Redding (RED) wouuld gain express status as long as there were no other stops. Adding waypoints between each leg would have the express status removed on the next tour. This was interesting as it shows me four stops (direct SF-SAC-RED-SAC) was not enough to prevent the train from becoming express, so that ruled out that the game consideres a waypoint the same way it considers a stop at a city station.

I like to separate my express and freight lines. At first, I was only setting waypoints on the freight trains, which allowed the express trains to function as intended without waypoints, choosing the shortest of the lines for themselves. Certain setups prevent this, though, such as a U-turn bend in the main line. Normally, the "inside" tracks are the shortest route and used by the express, but doing the 180 can make the "outside" tracks the shorter route, causing a mix of freight and express when freight trains are locked to that line. Reversing the lines, allowing express to take the outside and freight to take the inside is not workable because warehouses are always connected to the outside tracks.

I need a way to lock freight and express to their lines without interfereing with the express line ability to attain express status.

[chaney]

This is a fascinating report, thank you very much!

Apart from never merging Express and Freight track ... track is fairly inexpensive but for long stretches it may be hard to justify 4 tracks (directional/doubled for each type) ... I guess you would need to make sure the Express tracks are always the shorter option, and then you can use Waypoints for the Freight trains without any penalty apparent. With directional signals that could work out most of the time. I'm not sure what you mean by "warehouses are always connected to the outside tracks."

Keep up the good investigations. Can you track the time of each trip while you do this? It might provide some added insight into the details of the Express Status.

[theo20185]

Originally posted by chaney:

This is a fascinating report, thank you very much!

Apart from never merging Express and Freight track ... track is fairly inexpensive but for long stretches it may be hard to justify 4 tracks (directional/doubled for each type) ... I guess you would need to make sure the Express tracks are always the shorter option, and then you can use Waypoints for the Freight trains without any penalty apparent. With directional signals that could work out most of the time. I'm not sure what you mean by "warehouses are always connected to the outside tracks."

Keep up the good investigations. Can you track the time of each trip while you do this? It might provide some added insight into the details of the Express Status.

Here are screenshots of the tests: https://imgur.com/gallery/TAIMTJd

From the tests, the only difference is the use of waypoints. The setup was saved and used for each test. The waypointed train even has a faster time than the non-waypointed train and yet still cannot get express status.

For a high-traffic setup, I use two stations and two warehouses. This can support a high volume of traffic, most of which is freight: https://imgur.com/gallery/3119H2H

From the above setup, you can see that I would prefer to keep my express lines tied to the inner tracks from both stations. This is not always the shortest route between two cities, so in those cases, I have to way point the trains, but then I lose out on express status due to the waypoints.

[chaney]

Thanks. It looks like the waypointed train got significantly less revenue in a bit more time ... this suggests fewer passengers/mail cars were used. Since loading and unloading are significant portions of tour time, that could account for the quick (last) tour. The lack of Status is pretty striking.

For the setup you show, you can specify which Platform the Express trains (Passengers and Mail only setting, as distinct from the Express Status) use when setting up the route, without Waypoints. You can choose which Platform to use at each Station, which, in your case will fix the track to use as well. When setting up the route, each Station has a panel listed in order on the left of the screen. Click the pencil and paper icon on the Station you want to specify, and you can set a lot of details including which Platform to use.

[Colonel Sanders Lite]

Originally posted by chaney:

I guess you would need to make sure the Express tracks are always the shorter option

The only problem with that is when you want your express train to take a bypass so that it won't have to wait for a platform or busy switch.

This seems to me to almost certainly be a bug.

[theo20185]

Originally posted by chaney:

For the setup you show, you can specify which Platform the Express trains (Passengers and Mail only setting, as distinct from the Express Status) use when setting up the route, without Waypoints. You can choose which Platform to use at each Station, which, in your case will fix the track to use as well. When setting up the route, each Station has a panel listed in order on the left of the screen. Click the pencil and paper icon on the Station you want to specify, and you can set a lot of details including which Platform to use.

You cannot specify platform when using station signals.

[Dray Prescot]

Another suggestion would be to have a 2nd Station in at least some of the large busy cities (at least evey other one), that is NOT Signal Controlled, and have your Mail/Passenger trains use routes that Include those 2nd Cities and the tracks that connect them, that you want to be used only by Express Trains. While your freight trains use the other tracks that connect to the first Stations. That way, just by choosing the correct Stations the trains will use the correct tracks. In Fact, you might want to have the Express Routes use only 2nd Stations in ALL of your busy and large Cities. I would probably keep these 2nd Stations as regular NON Signal Controlled Stations, so one pair of tracks can be Express and the the second pair of tracks can be freight or Express as desired/needed.

Any time your Express trains go/in out of Signal Controlled Stations along with freight trains, they CAN and WILL BE delayed by freight trains trying to use the same Stations even if they use separate tracks between the Stations (which is why I recommend use ALL 2nd Stations for Express trains with separate tracks).

[chaney]

Originally posted by Colonel Sanders Lite:

Originally posted by chaney:

I guess you would need to make sure the Express tracks are always the shorter option

The only problem with that is when you want your express train to take a bypass so that it won't have to wait for a platform or busy switch.

This seems to me to almost certainly be a bug.

I agree this behavior is bugged.

The OP is using fully separated Express track and Freight track. The suggestion was to make sure the track intended for Express use is shorter than that intended for Freight use. This would put the trains set to Express GOODS (distinct from Status) automatically onto the intended track so the Waypoints wouldn't cause problems, while the Freight trains could use Waypoints and not have a problem.

In the example referenced, the track between Sacramento and San Francisco is naturally curved in a way that makes the OP's desired setup have the Freight intended track be on the inside of the curve of the tracks, and thus it will end up a bit shorter than the Express intended track. I can understand why the setup puts the Express toward the middle of the *City* and Freight toward the edges, but in this (and most other cases) the typical buildout from there will leave the Freight intended tracks shorter since they are now on the inside of the *curve* ... thus the problem with Waypoints comes up.

Using non-signal Stations would allow specifying the Platform, and if the trains are distributed across the two intended Express Platforms should be just fine. You may worry about losing throughput with that approach, but if there is little traffic, you are ok. If it is very busy, even a Signal Station won't keep up and there will be waiting, and the extensive switch network means the swap time between trains visiting a particular Platform is long compared with a non-signal Station with a single X/Diamond switch serving the two Platforms manually. There is a sweet spot where the Signal Stations *can* have higher throughput, but for the most part they won't be as efficient, although for some styles simpler to set up. I suppose with this *particular* architecture the Signal Station may be important if there is a lot of Express and not very much Freight going to a particular Station.

The gamey solution would be to add artificial or intended length to the tracks intended for Freight so the game will automatically select the intended Express tracks as "shortest." You could put a bulge or wiggle in the Freight tracks to make them just a little longer for example, or go around a mouintain while sending the Express track through it. For some pathing purposes, a Station adds about 17 miles to the evaluated length of a track, so running the Freight track through an extraneous Station could do the trick. (This is done so that trains will automatically pick sensible bypass track around Stations if not stopping at them.)

[theo20185]

Thanks for all the conversation, guys. As of this morning, 1.8 has been released on the community branch, which includes 2 track signalling control warehouses and stations. With this, I am going to alter my setup to keep Express on the city tracks only and all freight to warehouses.

[Dray Prescot]

@theo20185 that only makes sense if you get PAID for deliveries to Warehouses for Cities in 1.8. DO WE?

What I am thinking about trying in the Mexican Scenario which I am currently working on, is restart a new Game with 1.8. My Plan is to put a 2nd NON Signal Control Station in Mexico City to the NORTH of the main 4 Track Signal Control Station (for Freight tains) in M C The 2nd Station in M C would be for Express Trains and have a dedicated track (eventually upgraded to a double track) that goes to the normal 4 Track Signal Control Station in Veracruz that handles a LOT of Freight Trains, but the Express Track/Trains will stop there anyway. This Station (in Veracruz) could be tried in a NON Signal Controlled Version but it may end up Signal Controlled. Express Trains to/from Veracruz to/from Campeche, Merida, and Belize City could also link to the Northern Station in Veracruz, in the future, which might lead to that Station remaining NON Signal controlled.

This keeps open the ability for me to construct a 2nd Signal Control Station (eventually to be 4 tracks) intended for Freight Trains ONLY to the SOUTH of the 1st Veracruz Station, which is where I plan on having a LOT of Freight Trains bringing in Coffee from a Signal Controled 4 Track Warehouse near Tuxtla (to the SE of Veracruz). Veracruz can unload and send overseas a LOT of Coffee on a weekly basis (50 carloads per Week I think), So I am planing to send ALL the coffee I can load and transport near Tuxtla to Veracruz (2nd Station in the South of Veracruz) but keep that traffic from mesing up all the other normal traffic through at Veracruz's North Station. However, other Freight Trains could be brought in here as well, IF the station is NOT too busy with the Coffee trains.

You need to send a lot of traffic through Veracruz to expand the 3 Yucatan Cities (Campeche, Merida, and Belize City) including the Arms delivery Task from M C, as well as LOTS of Grain and Beer to those 3 Cities to make them grow to 45k or 60k populations. Plus there are the normal Beer and grain trains headed back toward Mexico City (M C)

By making at linking one end of the Express Track to a separate Station In M C I can arrange for ONLY Express Trains to use that track just by choosing the North Station in M C when establishing the Train Routes, even though the other end of the track in Veracruz is (may be) a Freight Station (probably Signal Contolled). While Freight Trains choose the South Station in M C. With Express Trains suffering some possible delays getting into and out of the Veracruz Station.

The second (North) Station in Mexico City could be used for a lot of other Express tracks, in particular the late Scenario Tasks for (true) Express Trains going to Tampico and Neuvo Laredo.

I suspect that tracks that get a lot of Express Trains (only) may be better to link to a Non Signal Control Station. Only trial and error with settle that question.

[theo20185]

Originally posted by Dray Prescot:

@theo20185 that only makes sense if you get PAID for deliveries to Warehouses for Cities in 1.8. DO WE?

Yes, we do. The train does not get paid on delivery. Your company gets paid when the city pulls stock out of the warehouse. I noticed that in 1.8, it now pops up the amount when the city pulls from the warehouse, just like a train arriving at the city. You can build up a huge stockpile of goods, but will not get paid until the city needs to consume them.

[chaney]

Those 1.8 changes are nice improvements, I'm glad to hear about them.

Getting paid when the City takes the goods always made sense to me from a game play point of view. It would be too easy to abuse otherwise. The cost of building a Warehouse is justified when its capacity allows you to conitinuously supply the City despite the trains delivering the goods in unsteady clumps ... and for goods from a distant source this allows you to always have the goods ready for the City.