Halifax Exploit (Great Lakes)

[Dray Prescot]

In the Great Lakes scenario, for the Halifax Task you have to transport 35 Cloth away from Halifax and Haul 35 Wood to Halifax.

As soon as you do this you as you do this, you get control of the rest of the RR in Canada and more of the Map opens up to you. I found out by experience that transporting the 35 Cloth to any Warehouse will satisfy that part of the Task.

So build a Warehouse (2 Track Signal Control) for $120k at Moncton (which is close to Halifax) connected to the Station (with a single track) at Halifax, and a Small Station at the nearby Wood Resource connected to the Warehouse (also with a single track). Now setup 2 trains, one hauls Wood to the Warehouse from the Wood Resource, and the second train transports Cloth from Halifax to the Warehouse and brings Wood back to Halifax. (Moncton will use some of the Wood for itself, but that is not a problem, there is plenty of it at the rural Station)

You start with some (about 14) Cloth at Halifax from Wood that was transported to Halifax by Land (before you setup your Station) and just have to wait for it to produce more Cloth to be produced to reach the 35 total after you start transporting the Cloth away. Meanwhile the other train is delivering Wood to the Warehouse for you to bring back to Halifax.

This will satisfy the Task as quickly as possible and as cheaply as possible.

(I also bull dozed the Station and Tracks in Moncton that I built to open up this Task, as soon as I got this Task to get the money back to help pay for this)

start:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/503940/screenshots/?p=1&browsefilter=mostrecent

finish:
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/955228549845586311/4DA74E06A57308A4E7F18359CCFF5F7F5891D98E/

I expanded the single tracks to double tracks and added a 2nd train to each leg as I got more money, to speed things up. I also expanded (rebuilt it) the Station at the Wood site to a 2 Track Signal Control Station.

So it took me from 2 July 1864 to 5 Jan 1865 to satisfy the Task. The main limiting factor was the production rate of additional Cloth in Halifax.

Now I (you) can run all of the RR Tracks and Stations (Ottawa, Toronto, and London) in Canada and have more of the Map and their commodities available to use and develope. Before this you are very restricted in Map access.

In the near future I will rebuild the Station at Moncton and connect it, the Warehouse, and Halifax to the rest of my RR tracks (and Stations) and start hauling the Cloth to the other Cities that want Cloth. I can also use the Grain Resource near Halifax to feed Halifax, Moncton, and the Brewery in Moncton and haul Beer (as well as Wood) back to Halifax. I will also start trying to ship in Meat to Halifax and Moncton from Quebec to help Hailfax and Moncton grow.

My biggest problem in construction was getting the Warehouse in the right location, since it could NOT be anywhere inside Moncton, which is the exact opposite behavior of a Station which MUST be located inside Moncton.

I may want to replace the 2 track Ware house with a 4 Track Warehouse ( but this is hard to do when there are goods already stored in the old Warehouse). I may have to go back to July 1864 and wait until I can afford to build the 4 Track version. OR build a new 4 Track Signal Control Warehouse near Moncton and ship everything in it to New Warehouse before I tear down the old one.

The biggest problem with the 2 Track Warehouses (either version) is that they can only hold 3 types of goods while the 4 Track versions can hold 6 types of goods

added: upon further thought, I think that I will take the option of building a new 4 Track Signal Control Warehouse near Moncton (so it can hold 6 goods) and decomission the old Warehouse once it is empty. I have the money to do it now, and that saves going back in time.

If I want Halifax and Moncton to grow to be reasonable large Cities (say over 60k) I will need to ship in more types of goods that neither of them can produce from locally available resources and a 6 Good Warehouse would be very helpful in doing that. Eventually there will be a Station in the City of Moncton to handle Express trains and direct shipments of Wood, Grain, and Beer with Halifax..

added:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1641428205

This version uses the new 2 Track Signal Control Warehouse that is upgradeable a 4 Track WH. The WH is located just below Moncton and is tangential to the city(red) circle. The WH has been renamed Cloth Wood D in this screenshot. In the future I will link up the Warehouse to the doubletack headed towards Quebec. There are 2 track connections available on the left side of the Signal Control WH to use in making that connection.

[gardlt]

This is one of my favorite scenarios. Having intially limited access, starting debt, the severe winters, and the different sources of cargo via trading options, is great at providing some deeper strategy decisions.

There is a requirement to build track there. I would attribute this sort of exploit in some part to the 100% refund mechanic, which I'm not that fond of. There are other tasks that can be fulfilled temporarily with assets that are then refunded. One easy example is to grab a connection bonus.

Mechanics end up defining the feel of the game and the 100% refund one has been instrumental in me sticking with Trainiac mode where time is valuable. If I spend the time to build something and it can earn me something, even a low profit compared to the amount invested, I run with it. I can get some form of penalty, lost time, if I make a mistake. With pause and the refunds a lot of a game can be reset at any time. With this type of game I have always enjoyed making a design that will work well over time and service a smaller city almost as well as a large one. Near-maximuml potential is possible at all times with pause but that's not a mind/strategy excercise: that's just a ton of work.

[chaney]

We differ on this one, gardlt. I enjoy the "work" and find the challenge of getting things done as quickly as possible (game time) to be fun. The basic concept of restricting your own behavior holds well. The idea of getting refunds of any significant value for destroying your stuff is too absurd, so I don't do it either, no time pressure needed. To me, the real time pressure is stressful but the decisions are relaxing. To each their own.

[Dray Prescot]

I could have done it without deconstructing the station and track that I used to get the Arms Task just before the Halifax Task. In fact I only removed Moncton Station and some track. However I did remove the Big Warehouse near Saguenay as well, which was worth a much bigger amount of money, and I want to reposition it anyway.

The early stages of the Great Lakes Scenario are really hard because of your very limited ability to expand the Cities because of the very limited amount of goods you have available.

A big problem is generating Meat at Quebec: You bring in Wood, then Quebec starts using the Wood for itself, what survives that is used to generate Meat in the Trade building, AND then Quebec starts eating the Meat for itself as well. The combination makes it hard to produce enough Meat for your trains to take elsewhere, particularly Saguenay and Grand Lac Victoria which you have to grow without having a source of Corn.

You also have problems with getting Beer, but you can eventually buy the Furniture Indusrty in Grand Lac Victoria and replace it with a Brewery. This takes a LONG time to get enough cash to do it, but until it is done, the Montreal is also a bad source for Beer just like Quebec for Meat (and for the same reason having to trade Wood to get Meat and Beer)

It is very difficult to grow small Cities with NO Corn and a BAD (to poor) source of Meat available, and a Bad (to poor) source of Beer (It is practiclly impossible in fact).

Part of the problem is the very restricted area of the Map available to you at that time. You literally have ONLY 4 Cities that you have access to, and 2 of them have those Trade center buildings which are too expensive to buy. So you have at most 2 Industrial Sites available to you to buy and repurpose (tear down and replace)

With the limits on you at that point in the game I doubt that you get any (of the 4) City up to 40,000 population and get a 2nd Industrial Site in it, in the early stages of the game.

In fact even at the time I had finished the Halifax Task none of my Cities had grown to 40,000 population.

Once the Map opens up after the Halifax Task is finished and you get the other cities with Stations (London, Toronto, and Ottawa), then it becomes possible to do a lot more. That is why I put such an effort into getting the Halifax Task finished quicky (the Exploit that started this message thread).

If I was going to restart the Scenario, I think that I would try to save the money I spent on buying the Furniture Industry in GLV and replacing it with the Brewery. This money would instead be dedicated to the Arms Task and the Halifax Tasks when they opened up. With the Cloth and Sugar available near Halifax, and the Brewery in Moncton I should be able to grow GLV over 40,000, but it would take a lot longer without using my Halifax Exploit, and eventually the Halifax Task will be finished.

In fact I think I might build a Warehouse near GLV and get it stocked up to make the run at growing it to 40,000 population there.

The early stages of this Scenario are very tough.

added: I am trying a restart of the Great Lakes Scenario, now that I have a better idea of what to expect and to prepare for.

[gardlt]

I played this through again for a refresher, Trainiac with personal penalties including no new warehouses and one-station-per-city. Made various mistakes, but still got 20/20 on tasks. Knowing what to expect does help a fair bit. I reached Halifax at the start of 1863.

There are various tricks. I didn't do it in my last play, but using a warehouse to feed Ottawa with wood helps in the winter months. I also found it worthwhile to buy then upgrade the logging camp at game start. Try to haul/stock-pile as much wood as needed for 100% production.

Actually, both Saguenay and Grand-Lac-Victoria need to be setup early on with a connection to their respective local logging camps as well or they will run out during the winter months.

I always preferred a Ottawa Brewery when it reaches 40k. Saguenay tends to build a Weaving Factory in it's second slot. This makes it's warehouse a necessity as trains wont load Cloth from Halifax bound for the Sag. station anymore.

Obviously to get company value buying some industries can be a big help. I always preferred buy/upgrade on Anderson Clearing as it gives better supply of Furs too. The other thing to watch is that you grow at least one city, such as Montreal, large enough to accept Tools. I major bungled this in my recent play. Sunk $6M on buy/upgrade Toronto trading center.

[Dray Prescot]

Thinking about what I saw happen, plus various messages I have read in this forum, I think that I ran into problems with trying to deliver multiple train loads of cargo to various Cities: I was trying to transport more of an item to a City than it would accept, and so various cargoes would not get picked up and would just sit in their source City or rural Warehouse. So I need to build Warehouses near the destination City and ship the items to the Warehouses to avoid this problem.

For example, I think that this was happening to me when I tried to ship Meat from Quebec to Saguenay, Beer to Saguenay from Montreal, as well as Meat and Beer to Grand Lac Victoria, to meet Tasks and to grow the Cities (for later tasks). This could help explain some of my problems in trying to take Meat away from Quebec, as well as Beer away from Montreal but slow production (trading site in the Industry slot) rates may also play a role. It may even have played a role in trying to ship Wood away from it's Sources to various destination Cities. Although production rates of Wood and Grain definitely play a role as well. Which means that you need to Buy those Resource Sites in order to expand them sooner. Plus you need the profit income from those sites to meet overall Income levels (the 800k per quarter task in particular).

I probably need to build a Warehouse very near each destination City, which basicly means all four of them (and other Cities when I gain access to them), to help out with this problem.

It is so hard to get some items that I wonder if players will buy those foreign trade centers such as the one in Halifax (Cloth), or the one in Quebec (Meat) in order to expand their production rates, even though buying them is very expensive, and upgrading them may be expensive as well. (I have never bought one so far, so I do not know the costs to expand/upgrade one).

In fact, I think that I need to restart the Great Lakes another time.

It also took a fair amount of Passenger and Mail Income, plus income from the Wood and Grain Sources to add to freight delivery income to reach the $800k per quater income Task. I did it before by saving up to buy the Furniture Industry and replace it with a Brewery. I am going to try to get GLV up to 40,000 population instead so that I can build the Brewery there in the 2nd slot for Industry. An alternate idea is to try to buy one of the wood for Meat or Beer centers, but those are pretty expensive.

[canophone]

I did manage the population feats by the expected times for the early stages. Is it easy? not necessarily, but, it is definitely possible. I just haven't surpassed the Southern Ontario stages still yet.

[Dray Prescot]

Looking at the commodity demand figures (from population) for various sized Cities, I think that having adequate supplies being delivered to a City of just Grain + Wood + Meat + Beer without any Corn, Cotton (for Cloth), Sugar, and Cloth being delivered (literally, none are available on the parts of the Map accessible at this stage), it is possible to grow a small city, i.e. Grand Lac Victoria (GLV) or Saguenay, up to over 40,000 population and get the a 2nd Industrial Site to use on a Brewery. There is no Cattle or Cotton available on the accessible Map at this point, so do not bother building a Meat Packing plant or a cloth making Industry.

Having the income available from the Brewery, i.e. delivering Grain to it and having more Beer to deliver, makes it easier to reach the $800,000 income per quarter goal/Task.

However, it is also possible, to buy the Furniture Industry in GLV (for about $250,000), tear it down ($300,000), and build a cloth Industry ($400,000), for a total cost of over $950,000. Needless to say, with your income at several hundred thousand per quarter at that time (maybe as much as 400,000 to 500,000), it will take 3 or 4 quarters to save enough cash to do it. (I did it in my first try at the Great Lakes Scenario).

Mail and Passenger income is also needed to reach the $800,000 income goal. Income from Wood and Grain Resources Sites that you should buy, is also helpful in reaching that goal/Task.

In theory, you could buy the Wood for Meat and Wood for Beer trading centers, but they cost well over 1,000,000, and I am not sure how much income you would get from them. If you have enough money to buy one of them, you might as well buy the Furniture Industry in GLV and replace it with a Brewery (see above).

I suppose you (or I) could try buying and replacing the Furniture Industry at the beginning of the game, but that would (probably) leave you short on cash to build the tracks and Station you need to build at the start. (I think I will try it out to see if it can be made to work).
Added: (Ithink it will take too much money to do the other things needed at the start).

[canophone]

I just wish the waypoint feature was more possible or tracks were assigned more smartly, as it would enable better functionality for the scenario. Unfortunately waypoints at stations require a certain length of track leading to each station track to be allowed as a sequence on the line. I'm sure that would be the same across scenarios, but it was this one that I saw this need on.

[gardlt]

canophone, you can specify that a train always uses a particular platform at the station manually. When selecting the option: Setup Rail line, click on a station to edit it: the numbers along the top are the platforms. Click on one of these to force the train to use it. Platforms that can't be accessed will be grey/inactive. Also note that depending on the setup the access may be in a great loop route. So make sure to select the right one. The nearest one to the station building is Platform #1. There is also a percentage of use that will help give an idea of how many trains are already using that platform.

For me the setup of the crossings and Service Tower approaching Ottawa is very inefficient especially with voluntary one-station-per-city handicap. I took the dozer to it, even if that uses precious time in a Trainiac game. Here's the design I used which allows a little Beer to get through the station for Saguenay as well in the early game.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1638428422

There is no need to specify platforms. This system works in sync with the pathing logic. Although very occasionally it will result in a stuck train for no reason.

How the middle platforms work:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1595721141

[jhughes]

Originally posted by canophone:

I just wish the waypoint feature was more possible or tracks were assigned more smartly, as it would enable better functionality for the scenario. Unfortunately waypoints at stations require a certain length of track leading to each station track to be allowed as a sequence on the line. I'm sure that would be the same across scenarios, but it was this one that I saw this need on.

WRT the waypoint feature, you can get pretty close to the station if you zoom in. I was able to pick a 'bypass' platform on a DC to Baltimore connection in Baltimore for a DC to New York City line. It was.a PITA but I was able to do it. (in case you want to assign a platform to a train that does not actually STOP in that station)

[Dray Prescot]

The timing is pretty good, I was about to try the Great Lakes Scenario with a fresh restart (I never went past finishing the Halifax Cloth/Wood tasks), and I just got the 898 MB download for the hotfix to the 1.8 Beta which gives us upgradeable 2 Track Signal Contol Warehouses and Stations to the 4 Track versions. With one button to hit to do the upgrade for a cost of $200k, just like the button to upgrade the original Stations and Warehouses (for 100k)

The new version of the 2 Track Signal Control Warehouse has connections to 4 Tracks at both ends that match what the 4 Track versions already have, so making the upgrade will now always be possible (if you were able to build the 2 Track version), since the space for it has already been taken (or reserved).

This also makes it easier for you to connect 4 separate tracks to each end of a 2 Track version, and you will not have to delete any tracks to do the upgrade to 4 Tracks.

I had been waiting for the update to the 1.8 Beta before doing a restart, in order to get the upgradeable 2 Track Signal Control Warehouses and Stations. Now they are here.

Being able to switch a train from any of 4 incoming tracks on Both ends (total 8 tracks) of a Signal Control to ANY of the 8 tracks outgoing is a big reason that I was using Signal Control 4 Track Warehouses (even when I did not stop the train AT the Warehouse). Now we can start with a much cheaper 2 Track version and upgrade easily to the 4 Track version when we need it and can afford to pay for it (of course, some/most/all of these tracks may be one way tracks or split to one way doubletracks as soon as they leave the warehouse tracks).

We also got an improved version of the Maintenance Stop building. (Plus I do not know how many other fixes and changes).

[canophone]

Sounds like the update should help with the scenario I described above!

[Dray Prescot]

Well I have finally restarted Great Lakes now that we have the hotfix or improved 1.8 Beta, and have just finished off the Halifaxe Tasks again.

This time I will press onward to see what additional tasks come after the $8,000,000 net value task. Since my quaterly income has gone over $1,000,000 and my present net value is almost $3 million , it should not take more than 4 or 5 quarters at most, and probably a lot less with the new Stations at London, Toronto and Ottawa, and the additional income from them and the trains that will be hauling to them.

I have posted at the top of this thread my most recent version of using a Warehouse near Moncton that a train from Halifax will deliver 35 Cloth and pickup 35 Wood to take back to Halifax to satisfy the Halifax Tasks.