AI does not need Signals or Side Tracks?

[Jive Turkey]

Playing in Free Mode. Found my AI competetion has between 25-35 trains while I am just using about 10. A quick look shows they don't have to solve signaling and side track issues. AI trains just share the same track for mulitple trains simultainously. Spamming as many trains as they can afford.

This gives the AI a large advantage over the player, imo.

It would be more immersive if they played by the same 'Realistic' mode as the Players do when that option is selected.

[Mansen]

That would require a much more complex AI however.

[Totems]

That was also asked in the beta version. The Answer was that it's calcullated that the AI has to pay more to lay down the tracks. ATM Ir's to complex to program the AI to use side tracks also.

[jasonbarron]

I've seen this topic cropping up all over the forum. I was almost ready to pull the trigger and buy the game, but this kind of kills it for me.

[flacwby]

I have to agree that with today's technology "too complex for the AI" is not a proper answer. Transportation/management tycoon games of all kind out there all force the AI to the same requirements of the player (at least visually). By not doing so completely breaks the immersion of this genre of game.

Don't get me wrong, it's a good game, however for me at least I just lose interest when the simulation breaks immersion and quite frankly penalizes me as a player trying to compete with an AI that has it easier, and yes I know that "the AI calculates costs more expensive" but that's still not putting the player against a fair competitor.

[Mansen]

Originally posted by flacwby:

I have to agree that with today's technology "too complex for the AI" is not a proper answer.

Considering how little AI has developed even in AAA series over the past decade, I disagree with this notion.

Originally posted by jasonbarron:

I've seen this topic cropping up all over the forum. I was almost ready to pull the trigger and buy the game, but this kind of kills it for me.

It is what it is - Railroad Tycoon has always used this behaviour, whereas RE lets the player choose whether to do it that way, or plan out sidetracks.

Originally posted by flacwby:

...but that's still not putting the player against a fair competitor.

AI can never hope to compete with a human player - So I'd say the concept of fairness was thrown out of the proverbial window from the get go.

[flacwby]

Originally posted by Mansen:

Originally posted by flacwby:

I have to agree that with today's technology "too complex for the AI" is not a proper answer.

Considering how little AI has developed even in AAA series over the past decade, I disagree with this notion.

Originally posted by jasonbarron:

I've seen this topic cropping up all over the forum. I was almost ready to pull the trigger and buy the game, but this kind of kills it for me.

It is what it is - Railroad Tycoon has always used this behaviour, whereas RE lets the player choose whether to do it that way, or plan out sidetracks.

Originally posted by flacwby:

...but that's still not putting the player against a fair competitor.

AI can never hope to compete with a human player - So I'd say the concept of fairness was thrown out of the proverbial window from the get go.

Look I know you love this game as you're all over the Steam forums disagreeing with anyone and everyone who doesn't like something in this game, however if you want to continue, please do more research or at least give more thought to your answers so they at least appear 1/2 way intelligent.

To infer that any AAA AI (or any other tycoon game AI) is as bad as this one, is what Trump would call "Fake News". It's just simply a line that holds no truth what so ever.

[Mansen]

Seems like I hit a nerve? Feel free to show me a tycoon game that does this level of pathfinding that you are claiming is commonplace. I'll wait.

Oh and if we can keep the schoolyard pettyness out of the forums, that'd be a delight.

[JonnyEntropy]

Originally posted by Mansen:

Seems like I hit a nerve? Feel free to show me a tycoon game that does this level of pathfinding that you are claiming is commonplace. I'll wait.

Oh and if we can keep the schoolyard pettyness out of the forums, that'd be a delight.

You are clearly a fool, totally deluded, or in the developers pocket (or all three?). The pettyness is all yours in your passive-aggresive and patronising tone.

You are defending the indefensible. The AI in Sid Meier's Railroads, for example, is far superior in an 11 year old game.

AI being 'too difficult' to programme properly is not an excuse. Hire better programmers or don't bother.

[Mansen]

So that's a negative on any examples then? Because I distinctively remember how Railroads! AI constantly made an absolute mess of its railroads, to the point where you'd be better off not having any competition, just because dealing with their cogwebs was a nightmare.

TTD - even OpenTTD with AI mods struggle to create basic networks that aren't singular lines. Not saying it isn't possible, but it is really, REALLY involved, and not something we've seen yet.

[GinsengSamurai]

Originally posted by j.s.dunning:

Originally posted by Mansen:

Seems like I hit a nerve? Feel free to show me a tycoon game that does this level of pathfinding that you are claiming is commonplace. I'll wait.

Oh and if we can keep the schoolyard pettyness out of the forums, that'd be a delight.

You are clearly a fool, totally deluded, or in the developers pocket (or all three?). The pettyness is all yours in your passive-aggresive and patronising tone.

Why the ad hominem? Mansen brought up some good points. I don't see the pettiness, nor the patronizing that you see. He didn't call anyone names either. Yet here you are, calling him a fool, deluded and petty.

Originally posted by j.s.dunning:

You are defending the indefensible. The AI in Sid Meier's Railroads, for example, is far superior in an 11 year old game.

AI being 'too difficult' to programme properly is not an excuse. Hire better programmers or don't bother.

Actually, it is defensible. We just have to look at the business-side of things, instead of the usual "Fire them all and hire competent people!" statement. ;)

What makes you think they're not competent? Sure, Gaming Minds Studios development seem to have cut some corners in creating a 'complete' AI for the game, but I see it as a balance between what can be done and what needs to be done by X date. The game has VERY POSITIVE reviews out of 168 people. That's not an easy feat to achieve. If they were incompetent, surely, the game would be MOSTLY NEGATIVE. ;)

AI *IS* complicated and it gets more complicated depending on the functions of what is available for the player.

Let me ask you: would you say the AI infrastructure for a game like Dune 2 is in the same league as a game like Starcraft 2? Dune 2, while I consider one of my most memorable games, just simply cannot compete in terms of AI in a game like SC2.

Lastly, here's the thing about development, if you don't already know. A company has X amount of funds allotted to a project. Each developer has a salary. So the Project Manager has to allot the time accordingly, coinciding the funds, timelines and what was promised. Usually, what was promised gets scaled down.

Companies normally do hire competent coders, but here's the thing, is the company supposed to fire one or two coders to hire another coder that is strongly efficient in AI? Do you know many coders that can do many different things in a short period of time within a limited budget? What was the original scope of the project? Is the company supposed to fire one or two coders to hire another one or two that can specialize in AI, specifically to code signs and signals? You probably don't see it as a player, but from the business-side, this is ridiculous. ;)

[JonnyEntropy]

Originally posted by Mansen:

So that's a negative on any examples then? Because I distinctively remember how Railroads! AI constantly made an absolute mess of its railroads, to the point where you'd be better off not having any competition, just because dealing with their cogwebs was a nightmare.

TTD - even OpenTTD with AI mods struggle to create basic networks that aren't singular lines. Not saying it isn't possible, but it is really, REALLY involved, and not something we've seen yet.

It made a mess but it used the same rules as the player. That's the point, and on the hardest difficulty it is actually quite efficient. Clearly the signalling and track selection required in this game is further evidence (if it were required) that the devs can't programme AI to any sufficent standard. It's pointless busywork disguised as complexity.

[Mansen]

I'd rather have AI that can play the game and cheat (which is a staple of AI, and will continue to be for years to come), than one that plays by the same rules and fail utterly.

Again - Do you have an example of this wonderous AI, you keep expecting them to replicate?

[JonnyEntropy]

Originally posted by GinsengSamurai:

The game has VERY POSITIVE reviews out of 168 people. That's not an easy feat to achieve. If they were incompetent, surely, the game would be MOSTLY NEGATIVE. ;)

168 people. Is that a joke? Let's see in a few months time, when the publisher's aggresive DLC policy and the shallowness of the gameplay has time to sink in. That's if it doesn't get abandoned, bugs and all (Urban Empire anyone?).

[GinsengSamurai]

Originally posted by j.s.dunning:

Originally posted by GinsengSamurai:

The game has VERY POSITIVE reviews out of 168 people. That's not an easy feat to achieve. If they were incompetent, surely, the game would be MOSTLY NEGATIVE. ;)

168 people. Is that a joke? Let's see in a few months time, when the publisher's aggresive DLC policy and the shallowness of the gameplay has time to sink in. That's if it doesn't get abandoned, bugs and all (Urban Empire anyone?).

You're missing the point obviously. ;)

If there are players like yourself who play games like this thoroughly, a game is bound to have negative reviews right off the bat. Warhammer 40k Dawn of War III is an excellent example of this.

Did you bother reading the rest of my post? The point was that AI isn't as easy as you think it is. I've been working with development companies since the 1990's. A team of people doing dedicated AI in gaming is unreal. Your example of SMR was a bad one. They didn't have the 'great AI' that you said in your previous comment.

Also, as Mansen asked of you, "Do you have an example of this wonderous AI, you keep expecting them to replicate?" - I am curious too. You must have this incredible AI in mind that is already available in an existing transportation game?

[JonnyEntropy]

Can I hear your defence for not being able to progress through eras? I'm guessing that was also too difficult? How about the small maps? The pointlessness of managing staff on the trains when you don't have to pay any attention to that mechanism to succeed? Not being able to buy shares in your own company? The lack of multiplayer?

The only advantage I can see to this game over its rivals is the graphics and ease of the track laying.

You talk about this game being from a small developer but they are charging AAA prices.